0:37

Welcome

Alex: 0:37

to the Working It Out podcast, Gary Laybourne.

Gary: 0:39

Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here.

Alex: 0:42

So you're number two on my hit list. Thank you very much for coming in so early on in the podcast series.

Gary: 0:45

What an honour. Thank you.

Alex: 0:47

So today what we're going to do, we're going to dig into your relationship with physical activity and then continue building our map, which Tim Hollingsworth started in the last episode. Yep. And the aim is to. Find out what you feel are the root causes of inactivity, how that may differ to Tim's, how that may add to what he's thinking, and how we can then throw that back out to your network to see their thoughts and feelings. How does that sound?

Gary: 1:09

Sounds perfect. Some serious shoes to fill from episode one, though.

Alex: 1:12

Oh, no, don't worry about that. I think every time we talk about this, Tim very much played down his role and played down his Influence in the sector because when I was speaking previously about Lauren Steadman, which maybe you're somewhere in between a Lauren Steadman and a Tim. So it'd be quite interesting to see what you say to some of these questions. So my first question is as part of the working out community, we have a locker. A large locker where previous guests have put in one item which relates to them and their relationship with physical activity. If I go to Tim's item, he put his rowing machine from when he was at home and during the pandemic he used that quite a lot.

Gary: 1:51

Yeah.

Alex: 1:51

I sent these questions to you in advance, so I don't know if you've had a chance to think about this one. So what one item would you like to put into our working out locker?

Gary: 1:59

Well, I could go really cliche as a runner. So just getting that off the bat. That's been my life and my journey. And that's probably where the narrative will always stay as what I identify as with physical activity. So I could go cliche and say my trainers, but I'm actually going to say my club vest. So, the club that I have the privilege of being captain of, South London Harriers, I'm also Under Eleven's head coach. I've done a number of different in my triathlon racing days there. And it's the fact that this single vest is horrific now, like stained and battered, and it's been on the journey since the day I joined which would be nearly 15 years ago now. But every single one of those stains has been earned. They mean something. But critically, the club badge is one of the oldest clubs in the entire country. 175 years we'll be approaching as our next anniversary. It really does mean something and it means something to us as a family. It's so much more. It's the friendships that we've built, the trips that we've been on, the races and the experiences and, you know, people from very high elite level to people that never thought they'd be able to run that are in that club. So yeah, for me, my club vest means everything in the sense of it's obvious running attire, but the fact that it actually has so many memories, so many things that it represents that I would definitely put that in my locker.

Alex: 3:22

It's interesting to hear you say it's got so many stains and memories within it. Is there a particular memory which stands out for you amongst the rest of what's running whilst wearing it?

Gary: 3:33

Yeah, probably a couple. I think the first one you know, in terms of running privilege, thinking my time was done after triathlon and coming back to running after a journey in running from when I was a teenager, but being marathon world champion veteran world champion. So 21st overall in 2022 and first old man home essentially at 40 plus having a photo taken that was then by a dear family friend of ours immortalized in a canvas painting. There's a picture of me in my vest coming over Tower Bridge, which as we sit is only a few yards away and is one of my favorite places in London and always has been it's so iconic. But on that day, there was also a Devon flag.

Alex: 4:13

I've seen this picture, it's an amazing picture.

Gary: 4:15

Honestly, you could,

Alex: 4:16

Is it framed everywhere?

Gary: 4:16

I'm done. Like that's the best picture I will ever have in a, in running. And as I say a really sweet family friend has put it into an actual painted canvas for me. So one of my favorite places in my favorite vest under my flag, like I just couldn't get any better. So that's probably the big one. And then there's other things, the stains bit in particular, when I finished top 50 in the national cross country championships back in 2020, just before COVID. I mean, we went to war that day. I was still picking mud out of my ears and week later sort of thing. And just the camaraderie that it built and, you know, the friendships again, that were forged on a somme basically that day was it was great. So yeah, no, it's it means a lot to me that best, and even if it's falling apart and I have to wear another vest, I'll never get rid of it.

Alex: 4:59

And I think, correct me if I'm wrong, I've seen pictures. Well, your social media of your children in the vest or similar vests.

Gary: 5:06

Correct. It's exactly the same vest. Yeah. So the kids that I coach again, that's what it means to me. it's a club that is a true community club. We're bringing the next generation, including, you know, exactly as you say, my own 10 and eight year old daughters, my wife you know, it means everything to us, the club. So that's what that single garment represents.

Alex: 5:25

So, we don't want to underplay, like you said, the first man home. I've got the official title that we've spoken about previously. 2022 Abbott World Marathon Majors World Champion for veterans 40 to 44 year olds. And your time was?

Gary: 5:40

2:21:07.

Alex: 5:41

2:21:07. That's going to be engraved into the back of your I'm surprised it's not under your arm.

Gary: 5:46

Yeah, I can, I've dined out on it for a little while. Let's put it that way and still am.

Alex: 5:50

Still a fantastic time for you.

Gary: 5:51

Thank you.

Alex: 5:53

I'm going through the process now of training for the current London Marathon, and whilst I'm competitive, and I try my hardest, I'm nowhere near that, so the appreciation that someone could continue at that pace for that long, when I see your training runs, and that's my 5k pace, and I see that you're doing that for 20 miles, it just blows my mind.

Gary: 6:16

Yeah but listen, I genuinely mean it. And I say it to everybody, a marathon is hard, big full stop. So if you are an elite two hour professional runner at the front, a Kipchoge, you know, a Bekele. Our bodies aren't designed to go that hard, so they're hurting and if you are someone who is a couch to 5k or who's taking six and seven hours to get around that course, you're hurting. So I have absolutely zero ego when it comes to particularly things like marathons because the appreciation of how long that training time and I experienced it with my wife. The only time she ever let me coach her, she has a very different relationship with physical activity. She had your stereotypical girls, very poor experience in secondary school and stuff, you know, almost shamed away into not enjoying physical activity. And it took a long time in a relationship with me to kind of build up that 5k, 10k. And then when she did her marathon in three hours, 57 as a first timer, it was. It was just unbelievable and seeing her, you know, I go, right, I'm off for my long run and it will be two and a bit hours and moan for her to cover the same distance and she's having to do it in four and a half hours. That's her entire Sunday morning gone. So no, zero ego for me, everybody doing marathons, including yourself, Alex, to pat themselves on the back.

Alex: 7:30

Yeah, well, I'll pat myself on the back after next Sunday. I think I'm finishing is my target. I've got some goals in my mind, but finishing is definitely the target. Like you say, with the one item, I am surprised you didn't go straight to your loving football team.

Gary: 7:49

My Plymouth shirt.

Alex: 7:52

I had a few items in my head and I've remembered seeing the picture of you in that vest so I was like it's either gonna, it's gonna be a shirt.

Gary: 7:58

Yeah.

Alex: 7:58

I thought it was either gonna be a running vest or a Plymouth Argyle shirt.

Gary: 8:01

Yeah.

Alex: 8:02

So you're quite passionate about your club.

Gary: 8:04

I'm very passionate about my club. In the same way that whilst I put it in the locker, Nine times out of 10. There are those times out of 10 where the last thing you want to see is that bloody shirt because they've just broken your weekend again by losing five nil or something. So yeah, that's a good point. It's a close second.

Alex: 8:19

In terms of your relationship with physical activity on your social media. I see a lot. Your daughters and proud moments for you when they're in a running shirt, but also I saw one recently when they're in the Plymouth Argyle shirt on the pitch for her birthday. So how is it for you seeing your daughters having that great healthy relationship with physical activity?

Gary: 8:39

I mean, it's so important to me. Because that bigger picture that we all know in our sector, you know, and that frustrates us so much that other people don't know, we all understand those wider social benefits, those things that it gives, that leadership, that learning to win and lose and all of those things that are borderline cliche for us. But so little understood outside of our sector. So for me to see them. Find their own path and find their own journey and look anyone that's a parent listening to this will completely empathise I know but you raised them in the same household with the same parenting and I've got two very different little animals I really have I've got one girl who will literally if I had to bet on it now you know, maybe be county at a couple of sports but we'll throw herself into every sport and bury herself to finish 20th, and I've got my youngest who has every single bit of talent if she wants it and has shown it in flashes and yet she can't stand it. Yeah. Like she enjoys playing and why would we wanna remove that? So that pressure on her is definitely not there. But when it also, then you see her on a track and you know that she could absolutely destroy everyone out there, but she's too busy picking her nose and playing with her friends.

Alex: 9:49

I bet she'll appreciate that.

Gary: 9:51

It just takes, yeah, listen back on this in a few years Annabelle. It just takes every fibre of my coaching philosophy and morals to then go, no, let her pick her nose and play with her friends. Because today isn't the day she needs to smoke everyone. But yeah, it's fascinating and it's, I'm privileged to be a dad who gets to watch that journey.

Alex: 10:09

So we're starting to delve into the emotional side of physical activity, which leads nicely to the next part, which we ask our guests, what one emotion would you use to describe your relationship with physical activity?

Gary: 10:22

The last word I just used, privileged. I genuinely mean it. Like, whatever we do or say today, the fact that I have the privilege to be physically active is a genuine emotion I feel to every fibre of my being. And what I mean by that is the, you know, the wider context of living in a country that allows us to be physically active, having the funds and resources to go and do these things, having the opportunities. But right through to things like again, whilst we have those highs as runners and athletes and footballers and American footballers when we get our injuries, that's the bit when you realize actually the sting of a race. So London is a great example because we've been talking about it. So highest of high in 2022 with that title feeling I could still go faster and having a title to defend in Chicago last year. And I spent nine out of 12 months injured last year, like just broken my foot. I'd really busted my plantar fascia. And the sting of that lasted a few days as in the training I've dedicated and then having that race taken away. But it was very quickly replaced by the fact that I just miss running with my dog. And I miss running around with the kids. And when we go on holiday, I'm a pain in the backside because I can't hobble more than a few steps. So to think if there are so many people out there that live with that every day, I think pretty much every training run that I go on where my head space on that rare time starts to go to, I'm cold, I'm bored, I'm sore, I'm tired. I will usually run past. It's normally, it's typically an old age pensioner or something and think they would give anything to feel how I'm feeling right now.

Alex: 12:04

Yeah.

Gary: 12:05

As a tired, cold person who can still run and move forwards. So for me, physical activity in its every single sense is privilege.

Alex: 12:13

It's an amazing one. I think you've done an amazing job for me there in terms of digging into why. So when we talk about privilege, I think now's a great time to drip in what you do professionally and you are the CEO of Coach Core. So for those who don't know, could you give a bit of brief context in terms of what Coach Core is? And then how, in my opinion, it links so closely to the word privilege of how you're providing opportunities for people who potentially wouldn't have had an opportunity to work in the sector.

Gary: 12:44

Yeah. So Coach Core, here we go, stock line. We're a social mobility charity, first and foremost. So we are here to take a young person, usually from Disadvantaged or marginalized group from point A to point B in their life. And as we all know, what really moves that needle is money and education. So we use the vehicle of sport and apprenticeships to make that needle move. And coming from a bit of a challenging background myself, which, you know, super happy to dig in or out of, but it's been something where, again, that privilege of being relatively quick round of running track, giving me my ticket out of my situation, getting to kind of see it on both sides of the fence where from an elite side. Right through to obviously a grassroots sport for change type side of things. I knew very quickly that if I wasn't going to make it as an athlete, then I wanted to put back some good into the world. So myself, and then joining the incredible greenhouse charity, which you and I, you know, alumni of, and very passionate about still today, seeing like so many other incredible sports charities doing those hard yards, but growing ever more frustrated with my peers that were head coaches, youth workers, sunup sundown every day in those settings. Seeing that talent for five years at a time, daily, come from 11 to 16 and knowing that that onward journey wasn't very good. Yet Greenhouse had done everything and more that they could have. It was growing within me and my coaches, my fellow coaches that why are we failing these kids when it's really the most important time of their lives, when they now need to go and get their job or their further education. And yet as a charity, we're always asking for assistant coaches and volunteers. Yeah, it's nuts to me. So Coach Core, I'd love to think one of the big reasons that we have been so successful is it has been born from coaches on the ground that have come from those settings and backgrounds of the kids that they were trying to support. And it was designed for 20 young people in 2012. In London, that's it. End of. None of this grand vision. No grand plans to take over the world. We just got very fortunate that there was some brilliant people like the CEO, Mike DiGiorgio, that everybody, you know, knows so well. Mark Curtin, people like that, you know, the creative development guys really put their arms around it, allowed me the ability to drive and tutor that very first programme. So literally been here since day one. And And we got very fortunate that William, Harry and Catherine around the Olympic Games were looking for a true legacy programme, something that was about that long term intervention. And with due respect, because hopefully I've underlined that point that it's not negative, but a lot of the other sporting interventions out there tend to be quite short term. So we, yeah, we just got very fortunate and it lit a touch paper. So we now work in 19, soon to be 21 city county areas around the country. We're fast approaching our thousandth apprentice, 250 odd employers. And those thousand apprentices have worked with at last official count over 12 million people around the country. all of which are in communities that need that provision most. So it's my professional life's pride. 12 years on. And I'd love to think that myself and the team still reflect that same authenticity and ethos that we started with back in 2012.

Alex: 15:49

That's, that's amazing. Thank you. I think there's for the listeners. I try not to make this a greenhouse podcast. I did speak about it a bit, but yeah, when it overlaps my life, but. Myself and Gary, we've crossed over paths without necessarily meeting all the way through my life. And with with Gary being a coach at Greenhouse, myself attending and then volunteering after I was too old to go. And then I saw when digging into your profile as well, that you've got connections and you're a coach at AFC Wimbledon. Yep. And as a fan, that's, I didn't realize that, which is amazing. So there's, there's connections there. And now in my working role within Sport England, I am the relationship manager, lead, what I do is the bits internally to support Coach Core. So it's been a strange journey for us both to get to this point and it's been overlapping, which has been really nice, I think. What we've also both spoken about in previous podcasts, as you mentioned briefly, there is we've both had stages of our lives where it wasn't too comfortable. And you said, and you said that you had a bit of a tough upbringing. It'd be interesting for the listeners to find out what you mean by that but specifically how sport helped in terms of providing an outlet.

Gary: 17:08

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I always have to be really careful and check myself here because, you know, what we deem tough is again, that word is privileged for others. You know, there's always somebody worse off. The challenges that young people face today aren't the challenges that certainly I had to face back in the day. But when you look at it, my father was servicemen. My mom was classic working kind of two jobs. He left. and really struggled to adapt to city life and basically wasn't around too much. We grew up on a notorious estate in South London and then over to the equally notorious Cambridge Gardens estate in Kingston.

Alex: 17:43

Did you live in Cambridge?

Gary: 17:44

Yeah.

Alex: 17:45

This is news, I also lived in the Cambridge Gardens estate. This is so strange. Gary's in my life. I feel like I'm just living Gary's life about five years later.

Gary: 17:54

Well, very sadly, I would have left it before you were even born Al. So, anyway. It's very strange. Well, then at age six six, seven, sorry, moved down to Devon for a better life. And you know, don't get me wrong. It's still where I deem home where my accent is still very confused and certainly why I support Plymouth. But yeah, again, living in deprived areas, the 18th most deprived area in the country actually, for various stages. So it was tough. There wasn't a lot of money. But we had a lot of love in the sense of my nan raised me, who was my hero in life and still continues to be, even though she passed God love her a little while ago. You know, and a mom who was working really hard and a dad who was trying to turn the corner, but it's hard when you're a bit of a legend in the army and that was all your identity ever was. So for me, the one thing I did have through genetics, my dad was in a machine of an athlete. So he was a national level gymnast. He was a PT in the army, so he'd be running 70 miles a week, mostly hungover. So I thankfully got that engine and very quickly with the behavioral issues that I had at school and was at risk of being kicked out a number of different times. Sport was my outlet. Sport was my biggest thing. It's my earliest memory. It's all these kinds of different things. And it's fired that competitiveness in me in life because thank God I met firstly a PE teacher who cared. And when you go to the worst school in your area, It tends to be where the sporty kids tend to come. So it's no surprise that a lot of our school alumni are very famous, well known sporting stars from the area. And then the second most influential person when I was playing football a lot that PE teacher put me in touch with an athletics coach. Cause he just said, look, you know, you're not going to make it as a professional footballer, but there's something there as an athlete. And he introduced me to a coach Roger, who was way ahead of his time. He cared about me first, athlete second, used to pick me up, take me to track meets because my mom and dad weren't able to, all these kinds of different things. And yeah, I got very fortunate. I had two incredible coaches. sporting role models in my life at the right time that helped shape that journey and make me understand the importance of sport and what it can do. And unsurprisingly, any qualification I did manage to get, which wasn't a lot, but they were all sporting related. So it has literally, I, you know, my wife will laugh when I wake up in the morning, Sky Sports News is the first thing I put on BBC Sport is the first thing I'm reading on an app. I'm just literally live and breathe it and obsessed with it.

Alex: 20:20

You use the words earliest memory in sports, do you have a specific earliest memory?

Gary: 20:26

Yeah Again, I'll avoid cliches cause I can remember running around and kicking footballs and doing bits, but the one when I saw that, that really stood out to me again, growing up on the kind of estate that we did all the kids on the area still had a bike and I didn't right. So I'm five. I think at this point, my mom and dad couldn't afford a bike and I had a scooter and they used to race what felt like a mile down this road and it was probably about 200 meters, right? If that. And of course, me pushing along on a scooter. I was miles last and that Christmas, when I got a secondhand bike was the greatest, I'd still today, it's the best present I've ever been bought. And I, the first thing I even remember at that age, so clearly the shock and the joy of opening that realizing the freedom that it would give me very quickly. I'm going to kick their ass, like fired up to just beat these boys. Yeah. On the council estate. And that's the reason why it sticks so clearly in my mind, because when I reflect back on it now, some way, somehow that competitiveness was always there to drive myself forwards. And sure enough, I never got off that bike. Like I loved that BMX bike.

Alex: 21:36

So in terms of transitioning from activity, I know you said football, but how do you go from, actually, we'll take a step back first because I'm going to say how do you go from football running into triathlon. So we'll think about that. But growing up five years old, just got the bike competitiveness. Where does, where does football start coming into your life?

Gary: 22:00

It is a really good question? Cause my dad's, my dad's a Newcastle United, he's a Geordie. He's a Newcastle United fan, but because he wasn't around, I don't ever remember watching a game with him until adult life. I've never watched a football match with it. So I don't know is genuinely the honest answer with that until, I mean, again, it would have been off local estates and kicking a football around cause it's what we did, right? No ball games. And that's the sign you tried to hit. Yeah. But it was my best friend at secondary school when we were 11. His dad was a lovely human being who either empathized, recognized what was going on, something, and just said, look, why don't you come to Argyle with us? And at that time, I think like half the country, I was a Man United fan. Eric Cantona was God for me and that kind of stuff. But he put me in a car and we went to an FA cup, third round game home to Fulham when they were crap. So not to Tim, sorry. And I came home and I don't think I stopped talking about it for two days. Yeah. Just that first experience and that love. And I've just been in love with Argyle ever since. So I'll go toe to toe with anyone in pub quizzes on football. Like I feel I'm a true stato geek. Cause I, and again, it's escapism, right? Like I threw myself into match magazines and I just absolutely adored football and still do to this day. Cause I see the, again, those wider benefits that it has. But I think potentially linked to where your question's going, I just tried everything. I did everything at school and it's, and it will be the part of my forward facing answer in a second. Again, I went to a poor school in a poor area at that time. And yet it was so sporty. So I ended up swimming at a county level. I ended up playing cricket at a decent level. I was tennis mad, like just wanting to have a knock about all the time that I could when I wasn't running, when I wasn't playing football. So I gave everything to try funny enough, you know, skinny as hell. So rugby wasn't my thing, but even that put a ball in my hand and I was enjoying kicking it around and stuff like that. So I gave, I honestly must've tried every single sport at that point because I had the privilege, the reoccurring word of being able to do that.

Alex: 24:01

So, as I said, moving, looking forward, some would probably see triathlon as quite a privileged sport. Yeah, yeah. Because of, in terms of privileged time and because you need a, in some situations, parents or partners to have the capacity to go out and run, cycle, swim all of that time. But also in terms of equipment and the cost of doing three sports, because you want a good£200 pair of trainers, you want a 2000 pound bike and then you need all your swimming bits. So how did you get into triathlon and how did, yeah, how did that journey start?

Gary: 24:39

So it's a really good question. Again, running shaped my life. Running became a real focus for me at 16 when I realized I was pretty good at it. And it was again, my ticket out. I got to go, I say to our apprentices today, you know, I'm obviously the biggest advocate of apprenticeships and work based learning. And yet I will stand in front of this. I am a fraud. I went to university. I went to university on one A Level. That's all I had. Because at that time, sporting universities, funnily enough, used to let you through the side door if you were pretty good. So I got to go to St. Mary's and, you know, it's just that, that dream of running at a decent level faded. At that point, I went back to kind of football. and I just didn't take the opportunity and the chance. There's no excuses. You know, it's just myself really that just didn't want it hard enough at that time. So I went through a few years and then all in the space of about six months I'd broken up with my long term girlfriend, my nan, who I mentioned obviously earlier, passed away. I was made redundant from a coaching job that was in all in a really short space of time. And I thought I need to snap out of this. So right place, right time, that right person, intervention. The missus at that time worked at a gym and one of the PTs there was an incredible triathlete and I don't know whether he saw something or whether it was just off the basic conversations, but because I could swim pretty well because I could definitely run fairly well. My naive attitude was, wow, the bike would be easy, right? It'd be fine. So my first ever triathlon was the London triathlon and this goes to your point about equipment, right? In a pair of literal cycling shorts. So I swam in them with the shammy weighing down between my legs. I got on a borrowed road bike, his road bike PT. In a running vest that I turned around between the bike and the run to make sure that the number was the right way around in a pair of 30 pounds Nike trainers. Right. And dropped a time that I don't think he was expecting. I certainly wasn't expecting. Mm-Hmm. And we realized. This is like my mid twenties or something. So it's relatively late to it all. Actually, you could be pretty good at this. So I would always argue back around that point. And I've spoken to a number of the lovely team at British Triathlon about that. Like it wasn't until I got quite far down the line that I started to use some of the real kind of tech and stuff. But my race bike that got me to a world championships was off eBay. My trainers were still Nike Pegasus. You know, I used to arrive at races thinking, Oh God, I'm you know, this guy with his S work Shiv, it's just turned out that bikes eight grand and put him in the ground and destroy him by, you know, 20, 30 minutes at a time. And very quickly that self doubt evaporates and you go, do you know what? Yes, this is a very privileged sport. It is a moneyed sport. There isn't easy ways to it, but it doesn't also have to be as expensive as you think. So yeah.

Alex: 27:26

I think what British Triathlon are doing at the moment in terms of their, The model that they're creating internally and the messaging around swim, bike, run, really are trying to change that mindset. And if we go back to the Lauren Steadman podcast of the series before this one. Had Lauren on, she was amazing. We supported her a lot, but as soon as I started the podcast, I was like, right, Lauren, you need to be on. And the story she told was a similar type of one. While she did have all the, a lot of the expensive equipment, she won her first championships in a pair of H& M socks. Yeah. So because the avocado ones, because she forgot, she forgot her performance socks and it just wasn't an issue because mentally. She wanted it. Yeah. So whilst everyone else was out there in their performance, waterproof, fancy socks, he was like, no, I'm going to do this. I'm going to win this in my avocado H& M socks.

Gary: 28:15

Perfect, yeah, so yeah, it's a real leveler.

Alex: 28:17

And that's another item that I've got in my locker, which is a great one. I've got some, I need to, I need to somehow. If anyone out there is listening wants to help me design this locker, please reach out to me because I do not have the skills to be able to draw this.

Gary: 28:29

No, it's got to fit a rowing machine in it.

Alex: 28:32

And Born Barikor's pull up bar. There's a lot of items in it. So okay. So we've found out quite a bit about yourself now we've started to introduce Coach Core into the conversation and what you're doing. What the final part before we move on. Is what throughout everything you're saying, what has been quite evident is that role models play a huge role in your life and it seems that's the role that you want to play and that your organization wants to play being a role model and also creating a infrastructure where there's people supporting young people through a pathway. So would you say your, your upbringing is heavily influenced by the way that you work?

Gary: 29:17

I think is a really good observation Al. Yes. I mean, obviously my team may feel differently, but certainly that's what I've always wanted and seen is probably the most I don't know that I have the right word for it, but the most unsung thing that we do here at Coach Core. So I always use it almost flippantly. Like the young people think they're on a sports coaching apprenticeship. They're not. They're on an employability programme that shows them the amazing amount of different career pathways that are available through sport. Very different. Because that can go to physiotherapy, business, entrepreneurial skills. All those things that again, we know inside our industry are on offer. But that actually the thing that is going to get the notice and the hook, particularly for those young people at the early part of the journey, is they get to be coaches, right? They get to go back out into the community. And don't get me started on even that. All of these misconceptions about how young people don't care and they're selfish. It's, I could give you data and insight that would blow that out of the water straight away. But the critical thing is is that they are going back in from the early days, right back onto their local area to become these role models. So we've spent a little bit of time talking about you and I background. We could go back onto our estates that we love and that we know have good people in them. And yes, we can create that connection with them, but particularly with the kids. Like I've certainly moved on in age. So it's going to take me a little while to make that connection with them again. And I certainly don't sound like I were used to talk. So those sorts of things. Our young person who has everything to learn about coaching and employability and professionalism. Get that. That's what we're here to support. They have nothing to learn about what it is to live on that estate and to be relatable and to be inspiring to those young people. And We make that very clear to those young people that are arriving on our programme, on our apprenticeships from day one. You have been told probably for most of your life, no, can't, shouldn't, won't. And we're here to tell you can, will, should, because you have so much to offer today on, on the start line, more than you think you're about to become a superhero. All those role models that I talked about in my childhood, that will be in your childhood. That's your opportunity, Mr. or Mrs. Apprentice, to be that person to others, right? And that's why that ripple effect is so great, because one of the great side parts of an apprenticeship is we've got you for 12 to 18 months, and therefore so does your local community. So even if you leave at the end of this, The impact you will have had in that time is unbelievable.

Alex: 31:39

And I quite like the fact where before working at Sport England, I was very much participation lens and how programmes and my experience of working with Sport England in previous strategies was around how interventions based on the participant and the workforce was very much secondary. I think that was my interpretation of how Sport England were working. We'll get a session on this, get as many participants as we can, and we'll find a coach who can deliver that. I think over the years it's very much transitioned to working with organizations like yourself or, and other organizations like we've spoken about, Born Barikor and Our Parks the role that the coach has. And the Apprentice has. I think it's an amazing model that your programme can evidence, not only that you're upskilling and improving the lives of the apprentices, but you've got that you're working in the right areas and still delivering activity to people. So it's not just education. It's still got that delivery part to which in my head moves us onto the next part around the root causes of inactivity. So. Whether it's within your current role as the founder and CEO of CoachCore or Gary as an individual. Yeah. What do you feel is, are the root causes to an activity? And if we're going to start creating this map we've spoken about, where does your brain instantly go to in terms of, okay, I'm going to map the root causes. Here's a piece of paper. What's your thought process to start?

Gary: 33:10

If I put a golf club in your hands at three, and I put a golf club in your hands, At 33, who do you think is going to be the better player? So that early shaping is everything, absolutely everything. And don't, please don't misquote me on that in the sense of, I'm not saying obviously it needs to be a specialist thing. It's not Earl Woods here or Richard Williams or something. My point is just simply that that early formative experience and that relationship with physical activity, like my wife, you know, having a great primary experience an unbelievably poor secondary experience and then was lost for many years to sport and physical activity until she got with a partner who was obsessed with it and he slowly coaxed her back, right? She says herself, she would have probably continued on the path without it if it had been that way. So to my mind, I think it, whilst it's relatively obvious, I don't think there's anywhere near the level of investment in education, particularly primary school level, that there needs to be. We all understand the power of school and PE and sport premium. But I think for our sector to really change, it's going to need an overhaul at the Department of Education level. Because we're shouting loud enough from our sector, but it's not enough, I don't think when you still are, you know, other coaches will tell you this on a day to day basis, going into schools, trying to talk about the importance of it in again, it's why this context, concentration levels, self esteem, all of those things and being the door slammed on them and that money being spent elsewhere. I think until we completely fundamentally change our relationship in those formative years with the importance of sport. We will constantly be on this battle of obesity, of inequality, etc. etc.

Alex: 35:10

So when we talk about investment in education at a primary school level there's two parts there for me. How would, how do you see investment changing? Because I think it could be argued a lot of investment goes in to educate at a primary level. What would you, how would you have a DfE change?

Gary: 35:32

It's who's doing the delivering. It's that's all it is. You're right. And again, thank you for that. Cause I sometimes come across as ungrateful, particularly. You know, given Sport England are such a critical partner of ours, for example. You're right. I think, you know, the money that comes there can always be improved, of course, but I think it's that level of who's delivering. So for example, my girls, when we were looking at where we wanted a primary school for them to go to, it was very clear to me straight away, regardless ofsted and bits and pieces, the school that they've ended up at has a full time employed coach. Every single day there, right? That doesn't happen in many primary schools, let alone, you know, a few. And so even the children at that school that perhaps haven't got that same passion and love for physical activity are getting quality delivery. during their primary school years, right? It's a really meaningful experience. It's well structured. There's, you know, learning how to win and lose. And again, all those sorts of things that we almost take as cliche. So I would say it's more a challenge on rather than just you, because we could chuck more money at them, but if you just go to potentially the wrong places and apologies for being potentially crass here, but it's usually the woman that owns a track suit in a primary school that then gets given the brief of where you go and do the PE internally, and maybe they'll let a after school football club through the door or something like that, that's not sport and physical activity. That's not really taking that potential for what physical activity can do throughout your entire school, instead of being seen as an additional add on to just do our two hours a week.

Alex: 37:09

Digging into that then, I think we've said, you said overall at a DfE level and then the conversation around that has been, has very much sounded extracurricular, which would argue that potentially isn't DfE, because You'd say, who's delivering the activity? We speak about a full time employed coach within the school. They wouldn't necessarily be delivering curriculum based activities.

Gary: 37:34

Yeah, no, they do. They do. No, that's my magic wand. That's my magic wand. Every primary school, if you're asking me what's blue sky here, every primary school would be mandated to have a staff member, full time staff member that has the qualifications as a coach or as a PE teacher or as someone that has sport and physical activity credentials on the payroll. Okay. that is there every day delivering those sessions to a quality standard that is going to benefit the entire wider school, not third party contractor coming in and delivering bits of coaching every day. Cause that happens. That's fine. That, that does happen at varying standards, of course. And again, that's probably another one about checking challenge, but that element of every single primary school child having the right to quality sport and physical activity from somebody that is consistent. And it's part of that school, you know, fiber. I've seen it firsthand at my girl's primary school because thankfully the Head gets it, understands its importance to the wider school and what it does to those children, even that don't have that same passion that my children do. But I know that at least two sessions, maybe three a week are going to be good quality structured sessions.

Alex: 38:47

I'm just really interested in this topic because I think there's. It's the relationship, I guess, between a Sport England, DCMS and DfE that you're potentially challenging to say they need to either be closer. What is your opinion in terms of where the two are right now?

Gary: 39:06

Yeah, I mean, even do we throw health in? As well, you know, Public Health England and stuff. I mean, there's so much that an outlet cause for hope this this pledge around cross departmental working from Labour, you know, I truly hope they stand by it because that's what it's going to take. If we continue to look at sport and physical activity as a depart, you know, something that sits within the DCMS I think forevermore it will always be deemed a cultural add on. Yeah. It's an option. It's something you choose. If we really want to shift the needle on this and improve the health of the nation, which, you know, again, present company absolutely accepted you guys do incredible jobs, banging drums and flying that flag on our sector's behalf. But I think it's going to need something where there's that real tangible, closer working. Where you have ministers, you know, is it a minister for physical activity that gets to sit between departments? I don't know. I'm not at that level. I'm not intelligent enough to kind of to know those things. But what I do know is what happens on the ground and that affects again, going back to my journey. In a school that didn't have resource like that, you know, was as far from public setting school as you could possibly get. And yet we have brilliant PE provision. We made the most of the resources that we had. It was taken seriously by the school. It was an asset to the school. It was realized that it was a real behavioral change capability within the school, like those things. That's where those head teachers and those big decision makers at every single school or academy have to start their career somewhere right as an 18 year old. either at university or hopefully through apprenticeships. Why aren't we educating and planting that seed back then? Like right at that point around, if this is the direction you want to go in as a geography teacher, as a primary school teacher, as whatever it is, you know, as someone that's very clearly got their goals set on being a head teacher of a multi academy or something. Why aren't we planting those seeds back at that point in that early part of journey, the importance of giving time and resource to physical activity for what it will do for your wider school. Okay. That's what I'd like to see that education 360 around our teaching provision because I've got so many incredible great friends, one of which was Brighton's Teacher of the Year, right, voted Brighton's Teacher of the Year, who is now ready to leave that sector because he's done with it. He's had enough. The red tape that ties him up. He can't do after school club provision. There's health and safety left, right and center. He's got a head that doesn't believe in it any longer. And this was a PE teacher that was Brighton's head teacher of the year, and he doesn't even want to be in our sector anymore.

Alex: 41:38

So it's really interesting that you say that because in my full time role, the majority of my role is working on a campaign called Play Their Way. It's about putting rights at the forefront of coaching philosophy. And through our research, we were speaking with coaches and those who work within primary schools as well. And they said that the main issue they face is the curriculum. And the fact that having fun Isn't the main primary driver can't be the main primary drive them because they've got other things they have to other boxes they have to tick. Yeah, they want a child to have the aspects that we call fun freedom belonging a voice choice and journey But they they struggle within the current curriculum for that to come to life and that scares me.

Gary: 42:27

Yeah, imagine that, imagine saying to a child your fun and your happiness isn't our primary driver here. No one would ever explicitly say that, but that's what you're saying by not doing stuff like sport and physical activity in a really meaningful way. That's ultimately what you're saying, isn't it? Cause that we know puts so many smiles on kids faces, re engages them back into why the curriculums, why the, you know, social interactions with their peers, etc. etc. I don't know. I mean, again, I'm slowly becoming militant on it and coming full circle and Tim bless him. I've talked his ears off loads of times, like how many more reports do we need to put out about this? Yeah. How many more things do we need to say where if you invest x it unlocks, you know, x, x, x? Someone somewhere is not listening and it certainly isn't in our sector. That's for sure. We all know the power of it and we're showing it and we're demonstrating it. So it needs to be rewound back at those fundamental levels of teaching and curriculum because I think if you get that right, It's not even about what it's doing for the kids. It's about those 18 year old future head teachers that are shock of all shocks going out for a run or, you know, at least embracing it you know, for their own children and, and etc. etc.So again, so the pride that I have as an under 11s coach is not the kids that, absolutely fly. I mean, again, we're so fortunate. We've got kids that are now national champions and stuff. And it's so lovely to see, but one, it's a long and hard journey athletic. So, you know, we keep it fun and we keep it engaging and it's a building block for any other sport, but it's actually the kids that I see that are there again, cliche, but are enjoying it, doing really well. And then I, with due respect, I see mom and dad on the sideline who are not physically active. And I have so much time for a parent who is like that and recognizes its importance, even though clearly it's not something that they do. That's the bit, that's the education that needs to start happening a bit more, I think.

Alex: 44:21

So there's a large part there on educating the next head teachers, the next people. Is there a role apprenticeships could play for people who are already qualified in the sector?

Gary: 44:32

Ah, 100%. I mean, from those real entry level qualifications, that allow you to progress on a pathway because again, we look, we check and challenge ourselves all the time. University is absolutely the right route for people, some people. And particularly those that have the means and access to do it right. For others that don't have that means or they're just going because they feel like they have to and they put themselves into so much debt. That's obviously the thing that we will soapbox all day long. Right, but it also doesn't mean it has to be a linear journey. I, you can do your level two and three with Coach Core, and that gets you your ticket into university to go and do your career. We've had apprentices do that, and I'm proud of every single one of them in the same way that we've also had people jump left in their career that they tried university or they've even some of them had a degree. But now I want to come and restart in a completely different career space because it just wasn't for that right. More power to those people as well. So we're now starting to see slowly the importance of apprenticeships and critically through the great work that Tara and the team at CIMSPA are doing, you know, mapping that out. So it's a very clear, regardless of what level you're going to come in at, there's opportunity for you to progress professionally. You can earn while you learn, you can get that critical working experience while you're doing it. You know, and there's, it's not just about Coach Core. There's some fantastic training providers out there that are also, you know, doing this work as well. So, yeah, I think we're getting stronger as a sector, and this is my point, we're getting better at what we do, we're getting better at being joined up, which we can't always say we were, and definitely we're getting through that joined up working louder with our voices, so it's now getting to a stage of what next, who needs to hear that voice, because we're slowly running out of people to shout out in our own sector, so it clearly needs to go beyond that.

Alex: 46:20

It'd be really interesting. I've spoken with Tara, booking in a date, so we've got her on here as well, which is great. So I won't go into too much detail now, but the work that they're currently doing and piloting are in the local skills space. It's going to play a huge role in what you're talking about in terms of investment and education at primary school level. I think what they're having, being on these local skills accountability boards in local areas, understanding and be able to evidence the role and the gaps and the need in specific areas to say, here's the workforce demand in this specific area and sport being involved in the conversation, which we weren't currently involved in at the level that we're talking about now. We'll hopefully see that trickle effect. Things take time, but that trickle effect of. Right. Investment and education at that primary school level and even at the level now, because when I was in my degree greenhouse, we spoke about them. They're amazing because they kind of sent me an end goal. I didn't know what I wanted to be and they sent me that end goal and I was like, okay, so my only route is college and then university. Yeah. That's just what I thought it was. Yeah. But then having, but then the way that this local skills piece is working is ensuring that education and higher education is tailoring to meet local need and demand completely. So hopefully through sport being involved in these accountability boards, we can say there is a need at a primary level for investment and education. Yep. So the work that CIMSPA and Tara are doing, which will hopefully go through a lot more detail links very nicely to what you say. So I'll be really interested to see What she feels are the main causes for inactivity and how that over, how, whether she goes into detail in terms of looking at a place like an investment at a primary level.

Gary: 48:05

Yeah. I mean, the other thing as well, you, Stuart, you know, Phil, these, these people that have been on the journey with us for so long that have been such advocates of us. Hopefully it will back up what I'm about to say. We always talk about investment and money and it doesn't always come down to that. I think there's been at least a couple of occasions where, you know, Stuart in particular will say to me, right, well, how much do you need? Nothing. I don't need anything.

Alex: 48:30

Open some doors.

Gary: 48:32

It's literally about influencing or resharpening focuses. You know, if we're giving X amount of pounds. It's not just about putting more pounds on top of it. It's just about, can we spend those better? And it's a similar thing. My challenge isn't to say we need to spend more money on educating teachers. We don't, we need to look at the time that they're spending in perhaps other areas that aren't as important as this. And by doing that, it will cost nothing other than some of the resources I get. But, you know, just that element of resharpening what's important. And again, we've seen brilliant examples. One of the best things I ever did was take some time out again. I've had the fortune of coaching abroad and experiencing different education systems from around the world. And I took some time out before Coach Core became an established independent charity to go and visit some friends in New York and go and see other charities in action. And one guy bought a failing, crumbling secondary school. This, this philanthropist who just, when I say on a fault line, it was the North side of the school faced brown tower blocks that were at war with the South facing ones. They could see it was on that road, right? They were literally shootings and all sorts of stuff happening. And this guy bought a school and he said basically to the state of education. So we're agreed. This is my school. And as long as we meet the minimum criteria, and the guy was like, well, you know, clearly the school had done nothing really. So he went, cool, great. So I'm going to, long story short, obviously, but he went, right. They're going to do basketball when they arrive in the morning. Then they're going to do some maths. Then they're going to do some basketball. Then they're going to do a bit of English. Then they're going to do some basketball. And then they might do a little bit of science. Then they're going to do some basketball. And they'll do some more maths. And then the next day they'll come in and do basketball, maths, basketball, science, basketball, English. We're not doing geography. We're not doing history. Stripped it right back. What's important? And sport is important. And the fundamental education is important. And that is it. Deliver those two things really well. And you change those gang warring kids lives. And guess what? 10 years later, both those gangs agreed to put down their weapons and come in and support what unsurprisingly was the best basketball school in the entire blimmin district. But those kids are going into university. Because once they've got those fundamentals nailed and re-loved education, found that passion for it again, then they could go on to do other things. I would love to do something like that in England. And I know there's some fantastic stuff going on in Essex with some of the CSL guys and stuff that are, you know, working really closely with the Young Offenders Units to try and do sort of similar projects. But I'd just love that. Couldn't we just accept that football is a tool of getting English and maths and science back into kids lives, not the other way around? I'd love it.

Alex: 51:09

I think that's the perfect place to end there.

Gary: 51:10

Wicked.

Alex: 51:11

So thank you very much for today. What I'm going to do now and what I'm saying for the listeners is what's your thoughts and feelings on this approach. We've spoken about two now. So we've spoken with Tim Hollingsworth and he spoke in his opinion around the COM-B model and specifically got him to dig into the opportunity part. Speaking to Gary here today and we're speaking around primary school and education investment and overhaul at the DfE level. So as I put this out there and you're listening, please do head over to the LinkedIn page. Share your thoughts and feelings, whether you feel like you agree in this approach or whether you feel like slightly different about it. And that's for us to do it the next day. So yeah, please head over and share your conversation. But for now, thank you very much, Gary.

Gary: 51:55

Thank you, Alex. Much appreciated. It's been great.