Alex: 0:37

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Working it Out podcast. I'd like to welcome Hayley Lever to the Working it Out community. Welcome Hayley.

Hayley: 0:44

Hiya, Hiya, good to see you, Alex.

Alex: 0:46

What we'll do is we'll jump straight in with our first question. So what we do with everyone is we have a big Working it Out locker where all of our guests put one item of their choice into our Working it Out locker. and whilst I talk to give you a bit of time to think, Gary Laybourne on the previous podcast, he put in his club running vest because if you may have heard he is So dedicated to his local club and he ran the London Marathon in it, and he has, his children have worn it, done events in it, and he's very attached to that. But now it's in my locker. So is there one item you would like to induct to our locker?

Hayley: 1:21

Yeah, that's a really good question, this. and I was thinking about, and it links to later, sort of what we'll get into, which is about my relationship with physical activity and movement over my life. But you know, if I'm really honest, the thing that I would bring just right now would be my little box of HRT patches, I decided.

Alex: 1:37

HRT patches. I haven't heard of that. What is a HRT patch?

Hayley: 1:43

I guess because for where I am in my life and my relationship with movement and physical activity just now is that over the last probably year and a half, I've sort of come to a realization that I was being quite massively impacted by menopausal sort of symptoms.

Alex: 1:56

Okay,

Hayley: 1:57

and perimenopause and actually probably had been for four or five years and not really recognized it for what it was. So about a year and a half ago, I finally got to see a GP and have proper conversation about what was going on and started on a course of you know, on HRT. and and it has absolutely transformed my relationship with movement as a real catalyst, I suppose, for me re, recovering and regaining my sense of self and energy for running in particular, because I had really sort of fallen off the wagon with way that I would engage with my running over the sort of, or four years over COVID as well. But that was part of the problem. It was all wrapped up in, it was quite hard to work out what was going on, but I was not sleeping. I was struggling, with anxiety and various things and just couldn't quite work out what was going on. and then finally getting HRT became a real catalyst for regaining energy, sleeping better. It's like an upward spiral, an upward spiral of kind of it. energy, clarity just feeling better in myself, which then enabled me to train. and it all came, I suppose it came from a conversation I was having at work about how I just didn't feel like I had the energy anymore to kind of run ultra marathons and run marathons. and it was a bit of a wake up call. So, well, why is that? You know, there is, it must be some kind of something that's driving that. and yes, which is why I then went to the doctor. So HRT has become quite a catalyst for me to regain my fitness and re engage with movement, physical activity in a way that I hadn't just felt like I could for a while. I'm bringing a little box of HRT patches.

Alex: 3:44

I love that. We've got such a varied thing, a varied amount of things from from pull up bars to rowing machines as you spoke about Tim's earlier to running vests. But HRT patch I feel that's A really real answer and honest answer. So thank you for so much for that. I was gonna I was trying to figure out how I was going to get this into the interview because I know you blog and as I saw on your on your web page right front and center Is the This Girl Can logo and they focus on the three main life stages and one of them being menopause so is there a link there between this gal can and your current relationship or How, how was this guy kind of front and center of Hayley's blog main page?

Hayley: 4:27

Well, it's interesting, actually, because it's there, because I think that was, well, probably when I first set the blog site up, it held meaning for me. I think This Girl Can has been, you know, one of the most transformative things in our work, and in people's lives, and women's lives, when it comes to the way we talk about and think about physical activity, movement, and sport. and It was such a powerful and still is such a powerful symbol of everything that, I'm about, I guess. I suppose that's, yeah. So why is it there on my website still? Well, it's probably because it still resonates really strongly with personally and professionally in my relationship with movement, but also in life in general. I guess the, and the menopausal, the interesting thing about the menopausal sort of stages stage of life is that it was. The ironic thing is that I was doing talks and I was, you know, writing about women's health and I was on platforms and stages talking about why moving matters in the menopause and not realizing that I was in it and it was impacting on me in the way that it was. So despite all that knowledge, I kept looking for other reasons why I might have been feeling the way I was feeling. So, and I've been, and it's been interesting because I have written about this whole journey because I went from feeling like I was just describing there, you know, a couple of years ago then realizing that, and I was about to turn 50 last year. and so I went on this kind of real journey to and decided that I wanted to run a sub four hour marathon. and then I really set about, you know, at the beginning of last year, for the first time in my life, like, following a training plan. You know, and It was really listening, I listened to a bit of Gary's podcast as well earlier and just listening to him and the way he talks about marathon running and your experience. It was just interesting because I've run a few marathons, You know, over the years in the last year and a half, I've weirdly become very very, very structured and purposeful and I've stated, I'd never stated goals or ambitions before in my life and not particularly when it comes to running I, and I'm known for sort of hiding away from the fact that there's a marathon around the corner, you know, and sort of it wants to be like ignoring it and certainly not saying I'm going to run that marathon in sub four hours or whatever. So I've gone on this real, like. Really weird sort of journey where I've, I'm now running to a training plan and the other item I thought I might bring with me was this watch that my husband bought me for my 50th birthday which tells me my heart rate variability and my pace and it helps me to find my way in the mountains and things. and that was the other item I was thinking, I was bringing because that has transformed the way I run because I'm now running quite, in quite a structured and organized way to a target and a goal. and so, for anyone who's ever known me, that's just never how I've operated.

Alex: 7:21

Okay. Would you say that because you're more conscious of your menopause and you're going for a phase where you're taking control of it, would you say that control is bringing structure?

Hayley: 7:33

Yeah, and I think It's probably, it's a life stage thing. My children are growing up and leaving home. I feel like I've got more time, more mental capacity. I've got a demanding job, but I'm also, there's a lot that's within my control and influence in how I organize myself and how I organize my time. and I feel like I'm coming out of the other side of, Where everybody's needs have been first and foremost, you know, in terms of being a parent, three children, et cetera, for the last 20 years. So in lots of ways I'm entering like a new life stage and, I, and I guess taking control and putting some structure is also about me. doing quite a lot of work with GM moving around active aging and positive aging and strong aging. and that's also. helping me to think differently about, it's not about accepting that there's inevitable decline, and I'm only ever going to get slower from here on in because, you know, this year I don't want to set this out loud yet, but this year I intend to beat my sort of personal best marathon time. That's what I'm really focused on now. Whereas last year, and that was prompted by a podcast conversation actually, where I admitted that I wanted to run sub four hours, on a podcast with Eve and our team. There's something about, for me, partly it goes back to This Girl Can, showing that it's not an inevitable decline. Modeling that, demonstrating that, you know, I'm one of the oldest people in our organization and I want to be a role model for active aging because that's a big part of what we're doing so yeah it's multi layered really. I think there's something about taking control. There's something about a new lease of life post 50, you know there's something about there is a vulnerability in, isn't there, in sort of saying, in stating a goal. and I wrote a blog about this last year about the fear of failure, because I had to confront the reality that the reason I'd never actually stated a goal before was because I was, You know, there was a fear of failure in me

Alex: 9:37

Yeah.

Hayley: 9:37

want to admit to myself.

Alex: 9:39

For me, it's quite an interesting one because I am quite public with my goals, and I don't mind talking about my goals, and I hate failure, and I'm really competitive, and I feel gutted. I aimed for a sub four marathon this year, and this is the first time I've said as well. I didn't get it. I struggled during the marathon. I, my knee started hurting. I decided to just slow it down, enjoy the experience. and I got four hours, 17 something. and I was gutted at first, but no part of me wants to do a marathon again. The training was way too long for me. I'm a team sport football on the weekends type person golf with the mates. That's the team sports is what helps me mentally. But look, I don't need runs by myself, but yeah, the fear of failure has never really been there for me, which I feel quite lucky about. I'm not afraid to dive in. I'm very much Jack of all trades and fail at everything. So that's the frustration. That's the frustrating part for me, but we've spoken today already quite a lot about, we picked out a few different keywords in terms of emotions related to physical activity, but what I've asked for you to ever think about is when I say let's do some physical activity, what one emotion comes to mind, what one emotion describes your relationship?

Hayley: 10:54

Yeah, I think I've landed on gratitude actually. and I went to when I saw this question on your list, I went to the Brené Brown book called Atlas of the Heart where she explores emotion and language and it's a beautiful book. and I thought, oh, I'm just going to, you know, cause gratitude was my overriding emotion for what movement, physical activity and sport have given me over my whole life, which is, you know, like you very much a kind of a jack of all trades, master of none kind of when I've done, I've participated in and engaged in like a hundred different activities over my life and never been an elite performer. and that's something I've always loved, is the variety of things that I do. and even now, in any given week, I probably do five or six different types of activity or sport. and that, but when I thought about it, I was thinking like, what I'm grateful for is that my career, you know, is come out of that love of sport and physical activity. My life has been transformed by it because when I've been exploring recently in blogs and things, the physical literacy work that's been going on in England and my relationship with movement over my life and realizing that there are, real key catalysts and pivotal moments in my life where my life chances were improved and my trajectory changed sliding doors moments that came down to people and it was a youth worker and a PE teacher and a sports coach and and there were these moments and conversations that were completely transformed. My life and bring me to where I am and the job I do. and, you know, the kind of life I have now. and so there's a gratitude for the way that physical activity and sport have carved out, you know, created my life. Most of my close relationships, friendships, I met my husband through playing basketball, you know most of my close relationships and friendships either were born out of people that I met whilst I was engaged in some kind of activity. Or that's the glue that keeps us together because we do things together and that's how we stay connected with each other, you know, as friends. Like tonight I'm going to the pub with a whole load of women that I haven't seen for ages, but we run together and walk together and have done for the last 20 years while we've been raising our kids here and stuff. So there's a social kind of gratitude for the people that I've met through movement and sport. and then and just for the health, the physical, but mostly these days as well, the mental health benefits of it. and that I just get, I've just got so much joy and reward from having an active life and I feel really privileged in that. I'm grateful for it.

Alex: 13:45

in terms of gratitude, you've mentioned there's youth worker, coach, et cetera, family. Is there anyone in particular that stands out that you'd say has influenced you the most or supported you that you have the most gratitude for?

Hayley: 14:01

I don't think there's one person. No, I don't. there's many, many moments. and you know, I didn't grow up in a kind of sporty household at all. But in my school and community, there was just, that's just what we did, you know, the, you know, our school, the first things I got involved with were in the primary school in the evenings. and, you know, there was just the things apart from, you know, playing out in the street and playing out on the green. As a child the first kind of structured and formal organized sport would have come through. the gymnastics club that used to run in our primary school in the evening, which was run by tea I mean, teachers are amazing. and back then, this is before the school strikes and whatever of the 80s, that, you know, the primary school teacher used to run a gymnastics club two or three nights a week in the, know, in the school hall, and and that was the pattern throughout my school life, where teachers who loved sports know,

Alex: 14:58

Yeah,

Hayley: 14:58

sport in the community as well. and there's a bunch of friends from my high school days in Coventry where, who we're all still really close friends now. and they were trying to, you know, there's a group of people who ran a basketball club got me involved in volunteering in the club. Really, you know, stayed friends with throughout, you know, throughout life. and then we still go walking and camping and stuff together now.

Alex: 15:21

amazing.

Hayley: 15:22

so no one person, but lots of. Like amazing people who put in a lot to create opportunities in that community.

Alex: 15:33

and so we've spoken a bit about teachers and schools there. The next part is around your earliest memory of physical activity. Is there a, how far can you go back in terms of your relationship and how you felt about it growing up?

Hayley: 15:48

Yeah, I think we'd go back to so I grew up in Coventry and, you know, working class kind of housing estate. and our, across the road from our house was a green, you know, square, no ball game sign, probably.

Alex: 16:01

Yeah

Hayley: 16:01

we used to play football on, on that green You know, day in, day out in the school holidays. and we used to play down the entry behind the house. We used to play all kinds of games, you know, rally one, two, three, and polo and things. We were just running around constantly playing games, running around and but particularly playing football on the green. Cause we were allowed to, cause it was just across the road, you know, it's even quite a young age. We went and do, do that. and it would bring the kids from the community, you know, there'd be half a dozen or a dozen people and we'd just be playing football. and then as, as you got a bit older, you sort of started to spread your, your wings a bit and we may be allowed to cycle with the next door neighbours to the nearby, you know, just a couple of miles down the road and, you know, you start to get your freedom, don't you, through

Alex: 16:46

yeah,

Hayley: 16:47

or we were allowed to go to the common which was a bit further away than the green and, you know, so all these

Alex: 16:52

I remember that. Yeah,

Hayley: 16:53

the green, the entry, so they are places where we kind of hung out and

Alex: 16:58

yeah, I remember that quite well and those stages and I've spoken about a bit in a previous podcast around the kind of the time I was allowed to go to Richmond Park. I grew up in Surrey, South London area and the time I was allowed to cycle to to Richmond Park and go around Richmond Park was a huge day of freedom for me and my friends because it felt like The size of Richmond Park, it was just, we had the world with us and we had a football, our bikes, frisbee, everything, and money for an ice cream. The day was done. They were set. So he had some great, I remember, I remember those, those days. So there's a lot around let's see, Coventry and going for council estate. There seems to be a theme with CEOs and council estates. So that

Hayley: 17:41

council estate. No, not council estate. Just a, you know, normal kind of working class community council estate on the, yeah, across that road over there, but no, you know and that was an interesting thing because I grew up just across the kind of main road was then Wood End. So I grew up in Potters Green and then there was Wood End. and then as it got into high school, like secondary school age and who come to the. school are from a wider, you know, radius, aren't they? So then a lot of my friends lived in Wood End and we used to go up to Wood End quite a lot for had an amazing youth club over there and they used to do all sorts of stuff over there as well. So, yeah, that's the other thing is kind of the quality, the roaming distance doesn't it grows as you get older Yeah, it was an amazing place to grow up because everything was on the doorstep, you know, the school was five minutes walk down the road. Yeah,

Alex: 18:26

sounds amazing. So we've gone through quite a bit there. Your earliest memory, but one part I am. I wanted to pick up on is your close relationships and mental health, those two points specifically. You said previously mental health, physical health, now more, more these days, sport is good for your mental health.

Hayley: 18:49

Well, it's interesting actually, it's making me think about maybe I just recognize it more now but yeah, I mean, you know, we all go through, you know, stuff in life don't we? and if I think about the last 10 years, there have been bumps in the road and some of that, you know, and then there's the hormone related, the menopausal type side of things as well. But, you know, whether it's grief or, you know, struggles that you're going through in life, or if it's the everyday kind of work stresses and strains and I'm much more aware. Maybe it's a self awareness thing of what I need as well as, as I've got older. and you kind of reflect on that when in particular, I would say, for example, when I had three kids under the age of five, desperation to get out the door and do something different of an evening, you know, once you've been sort of managing a family life. So the mental benefits, I suppose when I was younger, it was more the social benefits that I really appreciated and it was fun and it was all that. and I when you've got external forces and pressures, whether that's work, family life. Demands or grief you know, or you're dealing with loss or whatever, I've experienced all of those things in recent years. and I've absolutely, I know, I know that I need to run or walk or swim whatever. and I know that I will, I will feel better, but in the very short term, if not immediately, I can just get out the door, So I'm very, very, very conscious of it and it's so wired in now, it's just my first response to if I'm feeling stressed, you know, I had a, I was in work a few weeks ago and I had a very difficult conversation or a call and it was, you know, it was like a stress to kind of. fight or flight moment. and I had to, I was like, I'm just going to go walk around the block. So I walked around the block from the office down the canal back again, 15 minutes, came back in and went, right, all good. What are we doing now?

Alex: 20:34

Yeah. Yeah.

Hayley: 20:35

It's that simple, but it's so wired in for me now that I don't really need to search for it. It's, yeah,

Alex: 20:41

Yeah. That's what golf does for me. I think

Hayley: 20:43

that

Alex: 20:44

probably took to golf a lot earlier than most people, but it was definitely a point where I work for Sports England now, and that I've put a lot of pressure on myself because I feel I've spoken about in previous podcasts when I was a kid and I got challenged to be the CEO of Sport England and I had it in my head that I've got to set a career path out to work for Sport England. and when I got here, I put this. heavy pressure that I needed to be perfect all the time. and everyone working within Sport England was amazing individuals. They are, but incredible individuals who are perfect all the time. and the level of work is so much higher than anything else, because this is the pedestal I put it on. So as soon as I started working for Sport England, my mental health took a dive because it was, I was just putting pressures. So yeah, golf really did help me just an hour and a half in the summer and an evening after a long day. We, it is just, you can't think about anything else with golf. This one of those sports where you have to forget everything. Otherwise it's just, you can't play at all. and being outside for an hour and a half, just having a walk, even by yourself or with a friend and just focusing on something different was really helpful. It's huge for me. So yeah, I can, I can see that for you too.

Hayley: 22:00

just reminded me of something I was saying, explaining to a friend last night about, So I started running on the track last year. so we're based at GM Moving, based at the House of Sport in Manchester. A couple of

Alex: 22:11

Okay. Yeah.

Hayley: 22:13

and another office in town. But at the, at the Etihad office at the House of Sport, there's a, you know, it's a regional athletics center, the track. and I had never been on it, you know, in the six years that I'd been working there. and then I finally summoned up the courage to Try out this track monarchy. Cause my training plan was telling me to do these intervals and whatever.

Alex: 22:32

Yeah.

Hayley: 22:33

I've, I absolutely love it. Now it's wired in it's Tuesday morning. I'd get the six 30 train. I'm on the track and the similar to your saying there about golf is it's so noticeable if I'm supposed to be running to a particular pace, if I start thinking about work or life or something that's stressing me out or whatever, I slow down. and it's so noticeable. So

Alex: 22:54

Yeah, so

Hayley: 22:55

So then it's that focus. and I was saying to, you know, it's kind of meditative. You know, you're running, you're just going round and round the track, which I would have said is completely boring. I mean, I live in the hills. I love running in the mountains. The idea that you're just running around and round in a circle, it's crazy.

Alex: 23:09

that's painful for me.

Hayley: 23:11

different. It's a very different mindset. It's like mindfulness.

Alex: 23:15

Yeah, I am one of those kids growing up where I just wanted to be a footballer and my mum used to say, I'll do this because it will help you football. So I was running county 800 metres. Because my mum was like, it'd be good fitness for football. It'll help you get better at football. and I didn't really realise at the time, I was probably better at running than I ever was at football. But The thought of running around a track now as a choice when I did the marathon plan and it was I said Eight times 400 meters and i've got a track a kilometer away So there is really no excuse a good warm up and some things doing it by choice was just like I don't know about this about this But yeah, so there's some interesting stuff and we've started to talk about gm moving a few times now so what would be really interesting to you now, hopefully the people listening have found a bit more about you personally. For those who haven't met you yet, could you give a bit of information about your role and your organization and their overarching aims and what they do?

Hayley: 24:17

So I'm the chief executive of GM Moving. So it's one of the active partnerships across the country. So I've been working in, GM for seven years now, just over my role when I first to Greater Manchester was around the time of devolution and it was funded and still is funded by the NHS in Greater Manchester Combined Authority and Sport England. and purpose of the role then was to kind of lead the whole systems approach to physical activity in, in GM moving. and and then in 2019, just before the pandemic, I took on the chief exec role at the active partnership well, sort of combined role. So, four years ago been leading the active partnership. and in that time we've got a really pivotal role, you know, in that whole system approach as an organization, active partnership as a charity to lead and support and connect the GM moving strategy. So GM moving strategy is across the whole system. So the partnership board that governs that is the combined Authority and Sport England and the NHS and Transport for Greater Manchester, it's Community and Volunteer Sector, it's Community Leisure and Public Sector Leisure, GM Active. So we bring in together a whole range of organisations to really lead, you know, provide that strategic leadership for this agenda. and then the active partnership and as an organization, you know, our team are organized around the different areas of that strategy to really provide that leadership and support and connect into all ten boroughs of greater Manchester and working across every possible agenda to make moving everybody's business. and it's it's an incredible. you know, privileged to lead that organization and this movement in Greater Manchester. It's a real joy every day.

Alex: 26:03

So there's an interesting word there. and It's a balance between when I was doing my research, what it says on GM moving that their statements and very much how yourself and some of your colleagues frame what you do, you will talk about movement and moving. and GM is with the even the name GM moving but under the punchlines of what it says is around to reduce inactivity and increase participation. So when I was listening to some of your, your. previous podcast. It says, I don't really talk about physical activity and inactivity most about movement in general. Could you give people a bit of an idea of why you think in that way?

Hayley: 26:43

Yeah. So it's interesting because even in this conversation, I would refer to movement physical activity and sports. It's, you know, when it comes to me and my life and the work we do with, I suppose what, if I think back, I've worked in the physical activity and sports sector and sports development and policy for 30 years now and I've become more and more sure and more and more clear. and the evidence is clear that in all, if we want to make moving everybody's business and really create, you know, an active nation and address the inequalities that we have and that are persistent in this country and other places, then we need to take the widest possible lens what that includes. and I mean, I've examples every day of where people have felt. excluded or outside of sport and have had negative experiences of PE and sport over their lives. and such that there are real barriers there to people's involvement and participation in an active life. and I've had a really clear example of that just this week. and so in conversation, because my work, when I got to Greater Manchester, my job was to open doors into every part of the system, into the NHS, into adult social care, into transport, into planning, into highways, environment, all of these spaces. If If I walked into rooms and talked and led with the language of sport, it was really clear that it limited people's engagement, involvement in the movement because were people for whom they weren't well that doesn't speak to me or my experience and I can't see my role and contribution or the relevance of it to what I need to achieve here in my role in transport for example. So what was very clear is that we needed to talk a different language if we were going to make meaningful connections with people across the whole system. and we also did a really important piece of research early days with Britain Thinks with focus groups and conversations around people who were furthest away from living an active life. and it came through very, very strongly in that research and reinforced by loads of wider research that's going on around the country about how people felt outside of sports participation. So we know that sport plays a huge role in an active nation. and we also know that I think Tim talked about this in his podcast, didn't he? About if we want, if we want to increase sports participation, we need an active nation, you know,

Alex: 29:21

Yeah.

Hayley: 29:22

turning it around, isn't it? Cause we used it in, for a lot of my career, it was been focused on sports development and the hope if only we could help people find their sports, we would have an active nation and that, and

Alex: 29:33

Yeah.

Hayley: 29:34

and it's, you know, so, but actually we want, what we need to do is create the conditions for people to move in loads of different ways and to and to be and then some people, a proportion of people will engage in formal structured sport in

Alex: 29:48

Yeah.

Hayley: 29:49

we might think about it. But the, our mission is for people across Greater Manchester to live active lives. and that can be everything from, you know, walking to work, walking to school, cycling, scooting, wheeling, taking part in sport, dancing, you know, we need people to move for all the benefits that movement brings. I wouldn't say I don't talk about physical activity and sport, I would say you have to be multilingual and translator between and it's entirely dependent on the audience and the person that you're trying to engage with. and the most powerful question that we ask to open up a space for connection around this is, how does moving matter to you and your work? and I have not Found anybody who can't make a connection to

Alex: 30:40

Yeah.

Hayley: 30:40

to why moving matters to the thing that they're, you know, the mission, if you like, that they're striving for or the outcome they're striving for. So it's about it being more inclusive. If we're going to, you know, address the inequalities and diversify the people who engage in active lives, then the widest possible lens gives the best possible opportunity to do that.

Alex: 31:03

That's great. and I've experienced the same thing in terms of when just on one of your points, when you said around what movement is, and it's so much broader than sport. When I was first going through education and my degree and trying to find my first job, a lot of my friends see the sector as, oh, so you, are you going to be, you're going to work in football, are you going to work in rugby, are you going to work in netball? What job are you going for? and I said I don't really care what the people do. I just want to motivate people to have a happy, healthy, physical life. That's what I want to do. and a bit of a joke, what a program I used to look after was called get active, stay active. and I've tried to drop it in everywhere, but as a name, but it is true. I just, I didn't care what it was. It just said to students in my first job, what do you want to do? Well, let's make it happen. So it's as much as exactly what you're saying and what Tim went back to is, how do we get. People moving and then if there is a sport for them or there is a or if they're happy just walking, dancing, whatever it is. How do we just create the conditions for them to continue to do so? So yeah, thank you for that

Hayley: 32:12

and then, just to pick you up on it there, because this is so wired into us isn't it, is the word just. So this, this, the example that I was just referring to from earlier in the week is where trying to help somebody to see that it wasn't just. Dancing or just yoga. Because that

Alex: 32:30

Yeah, yeah,

Hayley: 32:32

of what's, important or what matters, isn't it? and it is so wired into us this particularly as people who love sport and movement. But this, this person that we're in conversation with was like, well, I don't like sport, I don't like sport don't like exercise. So no, I can't answer that question. and then when you kind of open it up and you go, well, how do you like to move? then it came to, well I love yoga, you know, and I love to dance, but there's no just in that, is there? There's no hierachy of value when it comes to formal structured sport participation being more than yoga. It's,

Alex: 33:08

yeah,

Hayley: 33:09

you know.

Alex: 33:10

that's a really really good point and i'm glad you picked me up on it to be honest I've never really thought of it in that way before so definitely definitely changing the way i'm i'll be talking about it I am Where there's we also in that and speaking about GM moving, you said around the whole systems approach and a lot of, if someone was to Google your name and find your blogs and find, see your posts, it spoken about a lot about who you are, what you believe we need to do. and you, and you said that's what GM moving is doing. So. This next part is around mapping out the causes of inactivity with where does your thought process start? Is it around a whole systems approach? Like you said a couple of minutes ago, or do you think broader than that? and are you narrowing into a whole system approach?

Hayley: 34:05

Depends what I'm trying to work out. I think my I wrote a blog recently. I tried to pull together some of my favorite models and tools and ways of lenses through which I look at things in order to help me my work. and Tim talked in his interview, didn't he, about the COM-B model. The COM-B model is kind of at the heart of GM Moving as well. and The other thing we use a lot is the socio ecological model. So looking at all, what are all the things that influence how much I'm going to move today? the socio ecological model was, a real kind of eye opener for me when I first saw it. Probably, I don't know, 10 years ago or something like that. where it was recognizing that there are all these layers and layers of influence, you know, around your social environment and your organizational contexts and influences and the policy and the built environment. Because for such a long time in my career up to that point, like I was saying before, it was almost like, we just need to develop more and better sports programs and projects that will get everybody into sport and activity. and that model, the first time I saw that was like, okay, no, there's much more that's influencing how much we move, isn't there? and so it was permission, like it unlocked permission to think much wider. and to, and it took us, it gave permission, I think, to think about active travel and active environments and, the way in which policy influences our day to day lives as individuals. and then I was reading and exploring some thinking with a colleague, Scott Hartley period of time looking at some sort of anthropological stuff and stuff around culture. and so we, we added a culture layer to that model. So, you know, Because it becomes really clear that our mindsets, and our beliefs, and our assumptions, and our hierarchy of values, and our worldviews, also, collective worldview, drives some of this, you know, so it's almost like you've got this kind of culture, cultural influences, that are, that are at a population level and at a global level, sort of drive all of the policy and the built environment and the organizational influence, et cetera. So we use that a lot and we use it in so many different ways. So we can use that model and that way of thinking to think about one specific, quite, you know, specific area of work. So colleagues in the last couple of years have done some work called right to the streets, which is around safer streets and, for women and girls. and the whole Home Office project was constructed using that diagram of what are all the cultural influences, policy influences, built environment influences, on the extent to which women and girls feel safe on the streets. feeling safe on the streets is absolutely vital if you're going to get people out and moving. so we use it in really practical ways. We also use it as a bit of a kind of Understanding what's influencing at a micro level, but also a kind of population level. So that's really, really helpful. and I suppose linked to that is once you understand what all the influences are on how much people are going to move in a place or in a demographic group or whatever. you can then work out, well, who are the key stakeholders and influencers in that? and so then if you're going to do like a systems diagram or a stakeholder mapping of who is it then you need to work with in order to change those things and pull the levers in those different areas. and that takes you to a whole different place because you realize that if you've only, if you've only been working with the sport and physical activity sector or you know, the education sector, but you're not working with transport or planning or highways or you know, policy then you're not going to, you're going to be limited in the extent to which you can make change happen. So those have been really, really important tools for us in our thinking over, over this sort of last, you know, six, seven years.

Alex: 38:01

So firstly, thank you. That was great. We've sort of spoken about COM-B model, as you said, and Tim, I've got him to really dig into if you were going to focus on one part of that, what would you do? and he picked the opportunity side. With the social ecological model, you said there's layer of influences and you've mentioned culture. If you were to say thinking about all the different layers of influences We're talking about England in general, is culture one that you are most interested in or is a specific layer which you feel this is where that this is where my skills, my expertise, this is something that I would like to focus on if it was me setting up my own business.

Hayley: 38:41

I think it holds a huge amount of potential. If we could all think about the collective worldview that drives some of our mindsets and beliefs and language, and take the conversation we just had about, Just the word just that comes from a collective worldview that formal structured competitive sport is higher up the hierarchy of values in society as a whole than yoga. if we could unlock a different kind of collective worldview, that people who just do yoga or just go for a walk don't feel inferior or don't feel like it doesn't count. How much potential that holds for change. Cause, we hear over and over and over again on a day to day basis about from people who feel excluded marginalized from Active Lives(Survey). So much of what's in the way is in beliefs and assumptions and values and worldviews. and actually it doesn't cost lots of money to change the way we think, so it also holds potential because there's always this ongoing conversation about how there's no more money, there's no new money, there's no, you know, and a mindset of if only we had more money we could change the world. Well actually I think we can change the world by changing the way we think and see the world and how we talk and and I know that for sure because I've seen it happen over and over again and the work that we've been doing. So the culture layer, you know, is where I spend a lot of my time thinking and exploring new ideas because I know it holds so much potential for change and we can, and I wrote a piece last year and it was like, it was about worldview and it's like, we're pushing, you know, we're pushing water uphill if we, if we're not challenging existing beliefs and mindsets and the dominant worldview that's holding these problems in place. So this, so that's the space that we're experimenting in really is what does that mean in practice and how do you go about changing culture? and the Active Souls movement is probably the neatest example of that where changing the rules that we make up in our heads about what you wear on your feet to work, has been trans, you know, transformative in Greater Manchester and it didn't cost a penny and it wasn't in the plan and it wasn't, you know, part of the strategy. It was born out of the frustration that a colleague of mine was holding about the fact that she had to keep high heels under her desk and, you know, change from her trainers to her high heels when she got to work. I just walked across town from the train station and, you know, so it's just, now it's become the absolute norm to go to work in shoes and clothes you can move in.

Alex: 41:34

Yeah, that's really interesting because from a Sport England point of view, we spend quite a bit of time and to justify the need to invest in campaigns. To create these behavioral change movements just because of the scale, but, and your point around it, it's cheaper to change the way people think that's how those two things conflict a bit. So be, be interesting to to hear your thoughts on from a, This Girl Can point of view. Could you see that being delivered differently then because it, from a more micro level way of cultural influence, if we used the socio ecological model?

Hayley: 42:21

No, I think This Girl Can, I think, I'm not saying you don't need money. I think you can, but you can get more bang for your buck if you like, if your work is informed as This Girl Can was. and it is still informed by real people's voices, people's stories of what's getting in the way because, you know, don't get the beginnings of This Girl Can the strongest message that came, came out in the beginning of This Girl Can research was about fear of judgment. Now, we'd never really been honest about that before in my career. and I think what I'm really excited by. In our work in Uniting the Movement and GM Moving as a whole, we are finally naming the real nature of the problem. and This Girl Can led the way with that because it was acknowledging that there is sexism, there is misogyny, there is fear of judgment, there is shame, there is all sorts of stuff that's wrapped up with why women don't participate in sport. and we'd never really admitted that before. and there are so many examples now of where we are admitting the real, nature of the problem and confronting the brutal realities of why these inequalities are still being held in place. and we're, there's a courage about us collectively at the moment, I think that it's just amazing to see kind of growing.

Alex: 43:43

That's why I'm fascinated with This Girl Can, absolutely. I speak about this a bit, my dissertation at university was around barriers and motivations to females, and at age 16 to 25, I think it's just, really fascinating age as well. and through the research, it was why, what are your barriers and motivations? and what are your motivations to do activity? and it was to keep in shape, stay toned. and then I was, I was saying, are these the things? So I went back to the drawing board with my, with my professors said, can I change this to be about more about perceptions and ask different, a different type of question. and so it was, why do other women? Participate in physical activity and whilst it's the same thing, the wording was different. It was to lose weight, to look good rather than to keep fit and stay in shape. So it's like, so now we're starting to hopefully understand and be honest and open. So obviously there's a lot more than what women think about other women, but that was just the iceberg moment for me, that example. So it was So really the whole This Girl Can campaign is really interesting to me. and it's interesting that it's, it definitely is linked here and yeah, not just being open and honest and really focusing on what the problems actually are.

Hayley: 45:03

Yeah. and yeah. and then you still do need to resource that then. So you still need the campaigns. If you can get you know, thought about theory of change kind of approach. If you're asking yourself a different question at the beginning, that it will lead you to a completely different place. If we keep asking the same old questions and trying to, you know, expecting to find a different answer, you know, we don't get the change, are we? But I think we're asking ourselves better questions these days. We're more prepared to confront the realities of how we've been a part of the problem. also, we're recognizing that what you need to invest in, you know, what you, how you use your investment can then be so much more impactful if you're asking really good questions not making assumptions. and a big part of that is listening to different voices, and different voices of experience. and we've got, you know, examples, some of the work, like the right to the streets work around women and girls, we've got an LGBTQ plus network where we're, know, exploring People's experiences of PE and sport over their lives and confronting the realities of how excluding those experiences have been takes you to a different place in terms of what the solutions are, you would spend your money differently and hopefully not recreating more of the same problem.

Alex: 46:17

So when we're looking at mapping this map, I'm creating this map for England and what we're attempting to, and then we've spoken a lot around social ecological model areas of influence, just like understanding people. In a specific place, there needs, there wants. How micro do we go? How place specific do we go? Because you're thinking GM moving at the moment as the organization you're CEO for. Do you look at Greater Manchester as a whole place or do you go dig into area specifics within that and the different different environments within that? How, how far are we digging into? into Manchester.

Hayley: 46:59

Yeah, so everything for us starts with people, you know, a person centered kind of approach and a I suppose the question we're always asking ourselves Is at what scale does this, this thing need to happen? So there are some things, so when I think about our local delivery pilot place based work, it's layered. there's some things that we do across the whole of Greater Manchester because they make sense. There was an efficiency and a scale at which it makes sense to do, to have an approach which is GM wide. So that's evaluation, it's data and insight, it's marketing, communications, campaigns it's people and leadership development work, you know, there's some things that make total sense to do across the GM layer, if you like, then there's 10 different boroughs. and those 10 boroughs have got their own identities and their own set of conditions. and then there are within that, neighbourhoods. and so, our job is to kind of create the conditions in which in any neighbourhood in Greater Manchester, the conditions are, you know, maturing and better set for people and communities to be more active. and so at a micro scale, if you think about a, You know an estate or a community or a town within Greater Manchester, its own mini system. So where I live, there's a mini system, which is the community organizations and the clubs and the doctor surgery and the school and the shops and the businesses and it's a micro system and so it's completely scalable. So you can think, well, what are all the influences on how much people move in this community? and as a volunteer in this community, how do we pull all the levers to create the conditions for people to live good lives and to address the inequalities so there are a set of questions you can ask yourself, which are, what does it make sense to do at a community level? What makes sense to do across a whole borough? Because that's part of a system that functions in a way, and that's a construct, but it's still it makes sense to do some things at a Tameside level, an Oldham level, or a Manchester City level. and then there is this kind of layering of what, what makes sense to do across GM. and then there's a national set of conditions and contexts that can be created in terms of how it, you know, if we could get to a place where there's a whole across, you know, across government approach to, you know, in a really deep and meaningful way that every single department in government and every single national driver is creating better conditions for this community in this borough. that's, the work, isn't it? So there's a whole system in terms of sectors working across sectors, but then there's also a geographical layering of that. and there are some things like United in the Movement sets a completely different set of conditions for everyone in England who's working on this agenda and it's transformative and it makes sense to do it at an England level.

Alex: 49:50

I think there's the interesting point at which Gary speaks about in the previous podcast around a cross government approach to sport. I think one thing he was quite passionate about seeing is having more presence or someone that sits across or sport to sit across All departments, whether it be DFE, et cetera. Do you feel that is needed as well? Or what's your thoughts? What specifically do you mean by like a cross government approach? Is it how do they interconnect? Or do you feel sport physical activity just needs to be more embedded within each department?

Hayley: 50:29

So, yeah, no, that's a really good question. Because it is, I've seen, it's really powerful to see the potential when parts of the system for whom this isn't their core business is. Get it, you know, and they understand. So for example, this week we've had the Greater Manchester Cancer Conference and Greater Manchester Cancer System is doing amazing, amazing work and movement as medicine, as part of the cancer pathway and the cancer system in Greater Manchester is growing and embedding and maturing all the time, the understanding and the belief that moving matters. in the cancer services and systems is growing. and so, you know, for me, I can see, I can point to evidence across sectors and across agendas within GM, where you're really starting to see it change now, where it's like, this matters to you, what you're doing matters to me. It's that reciprocal, the win win of, if we can get people walking, wheeling, cycling, using public transport, that's good for the environment. and it's good for, you know, air quality, etc. and it's good for me because my, my core business is people moving more. So that's what we're looking for all the time is kind of the kind of reciprocal relationship between the agendas and missions that we're focused on. So if you think about that in a national context it's always the perennial questions about which department should this sit in? I don't think, quite often people say, oh, should we move from DCMS into health? I don't think that's the answer either, because we need transport, we need, you know, housing, we need education, we need health, we need all of these departments to play their part in supporting people to live more active lives. and vice versa, we need to play our part in the things that they're driven by. So, for me, It needs to be across government and it probably, I don't know, I was been thinking about this about, is there an example of something that we've done in this country or a country has done where it's, where it's a mission or a goal or a outcome that's been sought and it is genuinely across government and is, where is it sat like, what's the best example of how you take that really collaborative approach to something that matters. and I can't think of, I haven't been able to think of an example. The best thing that comes to mind for me is the Future Generations Act and the Future Generations work in Wales but it's still early days and you can't say it's worked yet, can you? Like, it's so early days. So for me, like, the Healthy Britain report is a good example. The Healthy Britain report is the closest we've come to that being described. and the idea of having a kind of cross government approach and a minister for well being, for example, I mean, you know, that, where would it sit? Does it sit in treasury? Does it sit sort of slightly outside of the departments? and it's like a, um, what's the word? Like a, a unit, you know?

Alex: 53:40

Yeah,

Hayley: 53:41

I don't think we can point to somewhere where we've done it before. But that's, that probably tells you that's why it needs to be done. and then it's about the scope and boundaries of it. So is that, I don't think that's just around physical activity and movement. I think it's much broader than that. and whether it's well being, whether it's future people and planet, like how, how broad a mission is that? But moving us into health isn't the answer for me.

Alex: 54:05

I agree, I think it'd be really interesting to see, to see a unit going across and yeah, interesting that it's come up again. I think that's a perfect place to stop there. Thank you so much for today. Definitely, we've definitely got

Hayley: 54:22

think about.

Alex: 54:25

a lot to add to the map as well, and definitely a lot to throw out to the listeners that lots of things that we've spoken about. So if you are listening now or listening later, do head over to the LinkedIn page. They're Working it Out on LinkedIn. I will also be posting it on my page. Really encourage you to share your thoughts because the idea is that we're going to put out this causal map, put all the stuff that Hayley has spoken about today, adds a lot of it to what Gary and Tim has spoken about, cause there's some crossover there for sure. But then you listening, all your thoughts and comments also go onto the map. So please do also comment and share and challenge anything I've said today. I'm sure Hayley wouldn't mind. It's a healthy conversation debate on LinkedIn as well. If you've got different feelings or you want to add to it and build on it and think, well, we should be working this way. So I'll leave that there. Thank you very much again, Hayley. and hopefully speak again soon.

Hayley: 55:18

Yeah, take care. Thank you very much.