Alex: 0:37

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Working it Out podcast. I'm here today with the amazing Jo Pavey. Welcome to the Working it Out community, Jo.

Jo: 0:46

Thank you very much. Thanks, Alex.

Alex: 0:49

Well, thank you very much for coming here. I really appreciate it. We're going to jump straight into our first question, which is our Working it Out locker. We've had loads of items in it previously, and I would love for you to induct one item into our Working it Out locker, please.

Jo: 1:05

Oh, it's a close decision and I would like to mention two, want to be my treadmill because of how much it helped me in lockdown and also when I was coming back from having cancer. our children, it enabled me to keep some training going whilst needing to feed both my babies and being able to fit in my training. It was a big factor in me getting back to fitness and in my sort of path to getting the surprising European gold. I think without my treadmill, I wouldn't have been able to have that flexibility. Like it's somewhere to train without leaving the house and it was a massive deal that helped me because I was working around feeding the baby and that was Emily at the time, our second child. And it was just a way of being able to be flexible in my training. It was a massive help. But I think I want to mention my long white socks, which were, Oh, a big feature of my career because I think now with the new sort of super shoes they are a bit more forgiving on the calf muscles but during my career running 10k on the track 25 laps particularly of an olympic standard track where it's quite rock hard quick for the sprinters running those 25 laps your calves are absolutely shot afterwards and I really needed to wear those logs Socks to try and keep my legs together. I think when I did the final of the 5k after doing the 10k at London 2012 I actually wore two pairs But I cut the foot off one of the pairs so that I didn't have a thick sock going into my shoe But without those my legs definitely wouldn't have got round. They definitely help with a lot of injury prevention and dealing with injuries I shouldn't have two, sorry. It's not really the rules, is it?

Alex: 2:44

That isn't the rules, but because you incredibly dropped in reason for my Olympic gold, European gold, sorry, I yeah I can't take it off of you for that reason. So what we'll do is we'll go into both. Because there's a lot there to take in. I love the fact that you're around your treadmill and the post birth fitness. So I'd love to find out more about that, please. So that was a during lockdown. Was it then? Did you say it?

Jo: 3:10

it was both. During lockdown, of course, it enabled me to do more running, but I was kind of at the end of my career then. I mean, I did have aspirations, in theory, of trying to make a sixth Olympics, but it was probably a bit unrealistic, but I was trying to do that at one point. But also, just keeping fit for health and wellbeing and having goals I was still setting for myself. Of course, you weren't allowed to go out and about more than once a day, and you were only allowed to go out near your house and it's so hilly where I live and so I was struggling to find any flat but just generally having the treadmill on lockdown enabled me to keep more running going definitely. But it was more going into 2014, that was the time because when I got the European gold I was over the age of 40 and I was just coming back from having our second child and it was just having the convenience of being able to train without leaving the house and it was in a really sort of small place at the time in a cupboard almost like a cupboard under the stairs and you could barely get the treadmill in there And people used to joke. Oh, you must be very motivated to train in a cupboard, which is really what I was doing but it was also I think, one of the things that got me fit, because it was so intensely hot, I was doing a lot of tempo runs on there, interval sessions, but mainly just the convenience of being able to grab a training session when, Emily, who was a baby at the time, Jacob was a bit older when she was sleeping, I was able to think, right, I'd jump on the treadmill and also, because I was breastfeeding her it meant that I could be around so that if she needed feeding I could stop training and everything but just the convenience that it enabled me to have when I was a, coming back from having a baby and I had a newborn it really made a big difference and, but, Yeah, it's always been a useful thing, but definitely in those circumstances, it made a big difference.

Alex: 4:55

I love that. And so people would normally go to Portugal for some intense heat training. They'll go They may go to other countries around Europe. The trick is to go in the under stairs, cupboards,

Jo: 5:08

It was at a time, the thing is, more and more now, obviously at this stage in my career, I'm more for promoting, get out in the great outdoors, because That really is so brilliant for your health and well being. And I've always loved getting out on the trails even in the main part of my career. I love getting out and about, taking in beautiful scenery, getting out in nature. But it was just the whole way it facilitated me to increase the train load. I'd still get out and do runs, but it was the way that enabled me to realistically fit in a little bit more volume than I would have done. But yeah, treadmill training is great, but you can't beat getting out and the boost it gives you to get out the house and get out in the world running as well. That it was just more the means at the time.

Alex: 5:53

How was that whole process for you in terms of returning to training after giving birth?

Jo: 5:56

When you said about injuries, that also reminded me that when I came back from having both the children, because unfortunately I required a cesarean with both, and this is probably to advisable but I've used this technique on a treadmill with lots of different injuries though as well that if you ramp the treadmill up to a really steep incline you can do a fast walk on it and it's surprising how tiring that is and I've used it a lot then so when I first started coming back from having a baby the first thing I did on the treadmill was whack it up to like at least nine or ten percent gradient whatever it is and do Fast walking. I don't know if I'd call it race walking. I wouldn't be good at the technical side of that. But fast walking up a slope is actually more tiring than you think and you can get your heart rate really up and you don't have the impact and I did that to begin with. That was one of the first things I did on my comeback before venturing out with Gav pushing the pram, Jacob whizzing about on his balance bike and going up and back. back on a forest path so that I wasn't far from, the children and obviously Emily needing to feed her. And then next thing was starting to go to the track, which became a whole family day out because unfortunately the local track in Exeter was closed for that whole summer. So we were all going to Yeovil at the time, which is about an hour away from our home making a day out of it. like that. But yeah, those initial runs and workouts did start on the treadmill.

Alex: 7:26

I think if I was going to make you pick between the long white socks, which sound like they've got a lot of history with them, in terms of winning and com competing and your treadmill, which one item do you feel you, you would pick?

Jo: 7:39

Oh, I can't choose. I don't know. The treadmill in a way has been more useful, but I think without the long white socks, I may not have competed in a lot of the championships that I competed in because, it was sometimes I'd have a calf problem and I could only run if I was wearing them because at first when it was a thing which I should consider, I battled it a little bit. I felt oh, I don't know if I want to wear these. And I would be doing a session, struggling, and then halfway through I'd put them on, and then I could complete the session. And, when you have got a really niggling calf, it can make the difference between being able to do a race or not. And like, when I did, say, the 10k at London 2012, there's no way I would have been able to take 5k afterwards, had I not been able to put a pair of those socks on. In a way if I'm talking about most of my career, if someone had told me you can't wear them I would have maybe missed a lot more races and training. But then you see, When I'm saying about that as an advice thing, with the advent of these super shoes, really wear them now. Not that I'm doing very fast running, but it's totally different. You can do a road session in a pair of super shoes and you can't feel any pain in your calves afterwards at all. And then on the track, it's the same type of principle. It maybe isn't so important nowadays. I don't think you see as many athletes wearing them now as super shoes.

Alex: 9:02

So if I said to you, let's do some physical activity or, You said, Oh, we're going to do some, we're going to do some physical activity next week. This is the session we've got planned. What's one emotion that comes to mind in terms of your relationship with it and how you feel when you're asked those questions.

Jo: 9:20

Yeah, particularly nowadays, I'd say boost your mental well being. If you get out and, exercise, you just feel so good and get back in. I think particularly if you take the time to get out on the trails amongst nature. Just, yeah, the boost that it gives you, that's what it makes me feel now. And yeah, just that sense of well being, I think. And I think that's an important message I'd like to give to people who are considering trying to get out there and improve their fitness levels, but it just makes you feel good and, Yeah, it just feels brilliant, doesn't it, when you get back in from a workout.

Alex: 9:54

So we've got mental boost as the emotion, which is great. Has there been a time when you felt like, You've really needed that mental boost to whether this be competitive or after competitive careers have been times where you feel like you've needed to get out there to just, yeah, have that mental boost.

Jo: 10:14

Yeah, definitely. It's all like different phases of life. Definitely, there's difficult times in life and it does that. And then, also, particularly when the children are younger, you can get out as a family and enjoy that quality time together, being active together. So that's also, different reasoning that it's mental health of the whole family and then you've got getting out and when you're in the height of your career, you're trying to aim for certain goals. So you've got got actual markers in mind and, back in and if you've achieved those you that will give you a boost if you're aiming for something and I think even whatever stage you're at like for me now I still love to set myself a goal because then also that gives you that mental boost as well that you feel like you've got something to aim for and then you've got You know, the boost of socialising, getting out with other runners, or engaging with online communities, all that sort of thing I love being part of Running at 40 and being part of that community, and things about running that ties into the fact that it's good for your mental wellbeing, if you know what I mean, and

Alex: 11:17

Yeah.

Jo: 11:18

about it, and enjoyment is what's kept me going all these years, definitely.

Alex: 11:22

So you said you're still competitive and you've, you still have goals. I'm interested to know what your goal is at the moment then.

Jo: 11:29

in August I'll be going to the Antrim Coast Half Marathon, but I'll be doing some pacemaking for people who want to try and break two hours for the half marathon. So I'm really looking

Alex: 11:39

Amazing.

Jo: 11:40

to that. And then I'll be doing the Vitality 10k in September. But I am trying to get my fitness levels a bit better at the moment. And I think the problem is because obviously I'm over 50 now, I'm nearly 51. It's always don't get time to do this same amount of training and everything like that, but also I have to reset my goals. And I think however much training I do, I'm never going to get PB's again. And I'm always going to

Alex: 12:04

Yeah.

Jo: 12:05

Oh, I'd like to get a little bit fitter, but I've got to accept I'm not going to get there. But I just enjoy setting goals and doing things. Last year I took part in the road relays. For Exeter Harriers and it was like three 18 year olds and myself who was over 50 and it was like I was there with the team and that was a lot of fun and that was a little goal to aim for to run for the team. But yeah, I'd love to try and a 10K in kind of a reasonable time for my age, but

Alex: 12:34

Yeah,

Jo: 12:34

know how I get there, but I need to start doing a little bit more, but it's just fun thinking, okay, right, if I run this, can I try and run quicker the next month and things like that, because I'm not going to get PBs again, but it's still something you can do. You can set yourself little targets and try and aim for them and just enjoy being part of the running community really.

Alex: 12:54

I find learning a new sport is what I've I like to do instead of sticking with one. I used to play football as a kid and then I went into American football and then I started playing golf and I do golf, I play golf now, but then I also do this swimming, but learning a new sport and learning the skill and having the goal of being able to not be amazing at it, but just be able to be competent and competitive. I quite like that. That's the kind of goals for me, I think. Yeah. It sounds like for you is there's that still competitive part where you are still thinking about those PBS quite a bit.

Jo: 13:27

Yeah, not going to get pb, so I'm not really thinking of pbs. Yeah, I'd like to start doing a bit more racing and things, but really I just enjoy the whole, really the whole thing of still being involved in running, my husband's doing a lot of coaching and I help him out with that a bit as well, but he's like the lead coach, but he's doing a lot of that and I enjoy being involved with the athletes and they've got their goals and it's kind of nice to see them achieving goals. I've really enjoyed being able to think about things we've learned on along the way, Gav and I, we can use that to good use, if you know what I mean, cause you definitely, when you have your career, you have those years where, You don't always know a lot about the sport and your own body and how it goes with training and then you wish when you get to the end of your career you think I wish I knew all those things at the start of my career. Being involved with running 40 plus, trying to encourage people to run. All these things are things that I'm enjoying, the running 40 plus community, obviously they all encourage each other and then enjoy being an ambassador for Coach Core as well. They're just so brilliant the way they give opportunities to young people who've missed out through being disadvantaged, they've missed out on education and employment and that gives them a real start in life that they really need to have a bright future and I'm really enjoying all those things. I feel like there's loads of things I'm focusing my mind on, a bit of work for like Runners World, I've been doing a bit of commentary for marathons for Eurosport and All these things I'm enjoying, trying, and trying to improve at, and things like that. There's so many things to keep involved with, the list is endlessly things to do with running that you can still enjoy really.

Alex: 15:07

That's amazing. And we're definitely gonna dig into the Running at 40 Plus. I think that's something which really, it's topical in terms of this podcast specifically. So we will dig into that. I just want to ask a few one or two more questions about your personal relationship physical activity first, and it's great also to hear you're an ambassador of Coach Core. For those who are listening And maybe this is your first episode well worth listening to Gary Laybourne's episode. We recorded that and released that recently gary is the ceo of Coach Core. He's an amazing athlete as it turns out As it is, but he also is an amazing individual, did amazing work for Coach Core. So check that episode out and he'll talk all about Coach Core and the work they're doing with apprenticeships. For yourself, Jo, the next question we have is around the earliest memory of being physically active. So I'm really interested here to find from yourself in terms of what was, what's your first memory?

Jo: 16:04

As far as childhood memories, it wasn't obvious, really, that I would actually get into it. Go on to do running in the way I have because primary school it wasn't something I was particularly good at because we only did short sprints up to about 70 meters on sports day or, egg and spoon race, all those sort of things, but no distance running, not like they do now, no junior parkrun's no like cross country for that. or anything like that when I was young. So I didn't really do that well with those short sprints. There was a lot of stronger, quicker girls who always used to, be the ones that were good. And, but I loved doing everything. I spent hours being active. I was just active all the time. I'd be roller skating for hours. I'd be out on my bike. I'd spend hours on the tennis court and I'd just go, go and climb trees. I used to love playing football and I'd try and gather up all the boys in the street to go over the local field and set up a football match. And I always thought perhaps I'd have wanted to be a footballer if I could have been, because there wasn't really particularly any opportunities for girls to play football when I was young and I used to feel really jealous watching my brothers playing football and I used to wish that I could play. And then it wasn't until I went to secondary school and my PE teacher asked me to run two laps of the sloping grass school field, and she said, Was pleased of how I did and recommended that I joined an athletics club. And then some of our friends in the village who were taking their sons, they offered to take me along to Exeter Harriers. And then another family also took me as well. And it went from there really. And I just, I started to do all sorts of events at Exeter Harriers and then finally joined a group that specialised in distance running and on my career from there really, but had a few years of injuries. But as far as first memories, my childhood memories are just an enjoyable, active childhood, trying everything and just getting a good general around fitness by having fun and trying different things. I think that's what children need to do now, just try everything and find something you enjoy and that's what's going to make you keep doing it really.

Alex: 18:13

In terms of running at 40, I think this is Running at 40 Plus, there's a few bits here because you mentioned the online community a few times, which I'm really interested to find out more about. You also have a podcast, which I'd like to shout out to. You haven't asked me to, but you also have a really good podcast on their website called Running with Jo. So I definitely recommend listening to that. If you're listening to this and interested in. You don't have to be 40 plus, but if you're 40 plus and interested in running and want some motivation, there's a lot of really good podcasts there. But how did you get involved in Running at 40 Plus and can you tell us a bit more about it, please?

Jo: 18:49

Yeah, first of all, actually, when Running at 40 Plus started out, Sally and Martin Hopkinson, who set it up, they asked me to go and do a talk at their sort of annual awards and dinner, I went along. We just really got on well, they're brilliant people, and they just became really, really good friends, and they asked me to stay involved, and yeah, and they've remained really, really good friends, and I love being part of the community, and running a 40 plus community is just brilliant. It's an online community where Everyone's supporting each other. A lot of people might be experienced runners, but many runners are totally new to it and they're just starting out on their sort of walk, jogging and trying to gain confidence and they get confidence and support from the rest of the community. And there's we have a newsletter and we have the yearly awards night where we celebrate things that have happened in the community. It doesn't have to be celebrating the fast runners, it's people that have really stood out, things that they've achieved personal goals, or things that they've overcome adversity, things like that. And we have our yearly kind of place where everyone wants to go, it's the Antrim Coast Half Marathon we'll be going to that. that's become a feature in the calendar, but also now the Vitality London 10k, the aim is that Martin has set up really is that we want to try and have the world record for the amount of people crossing the line at the same time in the same vest. that's the aim for the event next year. But there's all these things that go on. So yeah,

Alex: 20:25

That's incredible.

Jo: 20:26

really to just really celebrate everyone enjoying running as they get a bit older. But it, it doesn't mean that you necessarily have to be of a certain age. It's just that it's really brilliant when people are over 40, if they're lacking in confidence it's somewhere where they can get that confidence and support as well as, enjoy their running even more basically.

Alex: 20:49

Is this open to all?

Jo: 20:51

Yeah, all genders and so it's Running at 40 Plus so you do really have to be over 40 but we do have some members that aren't and they're almost like the special members who will be 40 in the end are part of it. Yeah,

Alex: 21:09

that's really interesting. And because I've recently spoken to someone called Mel Bound, who's the CEO of an organization called This Women Runs, it used to be called This Mum Runs and their whole concept is pretty similar around building an online community of there's his women who, who want to just meet and talk and share their experiences. In terms of the online community, how does it work? How do people in your community like engage with each other? Is it like Facebook driven? All platforms.

Jo: 21:39

Facebook is a massive deal, so many members on Facebook. Yeah, that's how I'd recommend joining through Facebook, definitely. But yeah, there's so many followers across, all the media platforms, Instagram, and yeah, so it's really exciting. Yeah,

Alex: 21:55

That's incredible. I think that sounds really good. In terms of what's next for Running at 40 Plus with yourself and the podcast. What are you hoping to do with Running at 40 Plus?

Jo: 22:07

Yeah,

Alex: 22:07

it in terms of your role?

Jo: 22:09

obviously we'll be at the Antrim Coast Half Marathon. Yeah. And the podcast I'm doing is in in collaboration with them. So it doesn't mean the guests will all be over 40. Some will be, but obviously some won't be. It's just something I'm doing in collaboration with them. And then of course, we're looking forward to our awards night in November as well, which is a big thing. a really massive event over a whole weekend. So that's quite exciting as well. I'm looking forward to,

Alex: 22:39

Amazing. So then this is a question I've been asking sector CEOs, but I feel like you have a really interesting perspective on this as well. What I'm trying to do is build a map of the reasons for inactivity in England. So if you were going to tackle inactivity, what do you feel is needed? What do you feel are the reasons for inactivity?

Jo: 23:05

I think sometimes people are lacking in confidence. They feel like, how do they start? They're worried about what people think of them. Are they going to be judged? How are they going to do it? And I think, um, basically it's about giving people access to feeling comfortable to get started. And when we talk about certain communities that can definitely help to give people that confidence and support. I think people worry about maybe being seen to be out exercising and that, but they need to realize that if you go out for a run, you don't have to run continuously. You can break it up into chunks and run and walk and just getting that more advice on how to start. But just Also, finding ways of people enjoying being physically active. It's got to be an enjoyable process. It doesn't mean you have to run. You can just find something you enjoy or also make a varied sort of plan for yourself. You might do a bit of swimming, a bit of running, bit of cycling, but it's got to be enjoyable. And something you feel that you want to do. And also you've got to think, how do people find it enjoyable? For some people, it might be having a online community. For other people, it might be meeting up with a group, but having those accessible things. Brilliant things like Couch to 5K and Parkrun that have enabled people to feel comfortable getting out there running, just more of that really. And just schemes that people can find that confidence to take part in, but also have things to keep it consistent. People maybe need to be advised on setting goals, but those goals have to be realistic and attainable and also have planning that works back from them so they can see those like little markers as they're making progress and so that they're finding that motivation to get along to those bigger goals. Obviously it already has been, but a lot of focus for people on how much it can benefit their mental health and well being. And people sometimes need that place to start where they realise, yes, this is making me feel good. This is really great for my mental well being as well as my physical fitness. It can go into all walks of life then as far as their more confidence at work and in their social time and all that and it's just yeah, getting schemes that people can take part in that they find accessible and giving them that reason to get going and that confidence to get going and that support system to keep going as well. But yeah, it difficult and everyone's got busy lives so I think you have to find a way of, Helping people to fit things into their busy lives as well. I think that can be a challenge.

Alex: 25:41

I'm very aware that you have a very busy life at the moment. How do you find the motivation to, and the confidence to get out there and exercise when you've got so much going on around you?

Jo: 25:54

Yeah, I think we got remember that is even if there's not much time even if you go out and do 20 minutes It's a massive difference compared to doing nothing often if I haven't got much time I'll choose to do an interval session where I just do a few minutes warm up and often that'll be just run down the road and then I'll run up and down a hill ten times. And you can get that done quite quickly and that say, to a track, doing a warm up, going through the whole process and get back again. So you use the time you've got. I think also, in any way that anyone can, if you can keep active as a family, you can go out in the kids car, bikes or something, maybe run with you a bit, things like that, so you feel like health and fitness is benefiting the whole family, but just using any time you've got, like people who are busy at work, whether they can run to work and back or in the lunch hour, just pop out and, really like structure, the running can actually get more fitness done in time. If you do a few minute warm up and then you do a 10 minute tempo effort and then a few minutes warm down, you're going to get a lot more fitness than if you just go out and just do a 20 minute jog. So it's using that time to the maximum, but also one Being flexible, not beating yourself up and getting annoyed with yourself if you're not able to achieve all the exercise that you wanted to do. Just remember to be kind to yourself, you can't always do everything in life. And don't feel like, oh I've lost everything because I've missed that. Just try and pick up again the next day. Where you've left off and don't try and cram your training because you're making up from stuff that you've missed out. You have to be sensible, but just being kind to yourself. You have a plan for your training, but that plan has to be flexible. It has to fit your lifestyle and be time efficient, but also at the same time, find time for yourself because if you can that will help you have a better sense of well being and self esteem, and it does help you cope with other life stresses, really. But yeah, make use of that time, prioritise, be flexible and be kind to yourself, really.

Alex: 28:00

Thank you. So we're on to our last question. And this is one which we don't do in the Working it Out series with the CEOs, which I've now questioned myself why because it was in the original ones. And it's a fun question. If you were going to have a dinner party where you can invite three people who've been inspirational to you, it could be past, present, dead or alive. It doesn't have to be sport related. It's just three people who've really inspired you throughout your life. Who would you invite?

Jo: 28:34

Yeah, it's difficult. There'd be so many people if I had to list them all. Obviously, family, I'll put in one umbrella term to get away with having more, I think. Obviously, my husband, gav supported me and became my coach and everything. My children have kept me really motivated and happy. Of course, my mum and dad have supported me and my brothers as well, my whole family that have supported me. Yeah, I suppose sport wise Dame Kelly Holmes, because obviously I admire the fact that she got a double gold and it's 20 years this year since she got that historic double gold at the Olympics in Athens, 2004. But when I started out in my career and I just started to make a breakthrough. I started doing the 1500 and she was in the 1500. And even though we're in the same event, she was so encouraging to me and wanted to help me out from the outset and even, help me with going training overseas and just was always there being a big encouragement and yeah. And she's, yeah, she's just done amazing actually, but she really inspired me. Yeah. And then. Yeah, it's difficult outside sport. There's a lot of people, maybe, so I was a big U2 fan, maybe Bono, because I've just

Alex: 29:52

Bono,

Jo: 29:53

been a big U2 fan. Yeah, and just,

Alex: 29:56

that's

Jo: 29:57

way he performs is just amazing and everything he's achieved and everything. Yeah.

Alex: 30:02

Great. So we'll have Gav as the representative for your family, the family as a whole, Dame Kelly Holmes and Bono. The interesting one there around Kelly Holmes, the one which I've never understood maybe because I'm the wrong side of competitive, even watching the Olympics this year and seeing The gymnastics, but where all the individual sports where all the competitors, even other countries, it does feel like they're all friends and they're all encouraging each other, even though they're competing against each other, even the people in the same country, they're still competing against each other, but they all seem like really good friends. I can't understand that myself. But how did that feel for you? Was it quite like a conflicting feeling?

Jo: 30:50

Yeah, I think we're all supportive of each other and Kelly really was supportive of the team, even when she was winning the gold medal. She was putting notes on the people's doors, trying to support them, wishing them good luck

Alex: 31:03

Amazing.

Jo: 31:05

And there is that camaraderie, and being in Village with Team GB, you've got the support of everyone in that, country, as in, you've got the whole country, all due to different sports, and they're all saying, oh, well done to each other, and that real feeling of being a team is absolutely lovely, and you definitely get that with the athletics team, everyone is so lovely, and so focused and very appreciative that everyone's had to make, those sort of sacrifices to try and get themselves in good shape and going down the track at the holding camp and being able to train whilst at the same time our relay runners are doing their relay practice and you see how fast they are and you're actually on the track with them. Yeah, feeling of camaraderie and that is amazing. So that's really good. But yeah, when I think about being inspired in the sport as well just thinking back to that question, I also think not only just people I was on the team, people I watched when I was, Growing up or when I was a bit older as well, but just, in people like Liz McColgan, she'd won the World Championships at the event that I ended up aiming for and then obviously even my age I was watching Coe, Cram and Ovett as well, and all these people played a part in inspiring me as well, and it's hard to list certain people, but yeah, that is a definite thing. I loved about being in the sport was being part of the team and we are lucky in the athletic team. And I think you can see that with the team GB that have been at this games, how much they are a team and how much they look out for each other and how much they support each other. And I think we are very lucky in athletics that it is like that really.

Alex: 32:47

That's fantastic. Thank you. As like I said with this podcast, it is, I do try to narrow people down, which makes it a bit unfair in terms of picking one item, one emotion, three people around the table, but we've covered quite a lot today. So thank you very much. So I feel like that's the perfect place to finish. Yeah, for those who have listened today, hopefully you've got this far, hopefully you've enjoyed listening to Jo, she's been very kind to come on with us today. What we do is we'll share this on all platforms, and we've got her opinions on the cause of inactivity as well, we're going to add that to our map. If you like what she says, or want to add to it, or disagrees, then no, we should focus on something completely different. And please do head over to our LinkedIn and join the conversation and also Comment because all those comments will be added onto our map as well, but we'll leave it there for now. Thank you very much for joining us today Jo.

Jo: 33:37

Thanks so much. Thanks a lot.