Working it Out with Sue Anstiss (S3E4)

Delighted to have the Author, podcaster, filmmaker, Fearless Women CEO, Women’s Sport Collective founder, The Game Changers podcast host and on Exec Director at London Mavericks & Leisure Focus, Sue Anstiss on the podcast. 

Transcript

Alex: 0:37

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Working it Out podcast. Today we've got an amazing guest with us. She's a CEO and founder of an organization called Fearless Women. She's the host of a podcast called the Game Changers podcast. She is a non executive director at the London Mavericks. I've got a long list of things I won't reel off. Do check out her LinkedIn. Today we've got the amazing Sue Anstiss. Thank you for joining us today, Sue.

Sue: 1:01

thank you. It's an absolute pleasure to be here, Alex.

Alex: 1:05

Yeah, no, pleasure's mine as well. I've been trying to get you on for a while, so I'm really pleased to have you here. I think what we do is we jump straight into our first question, and that's about our Working it Out Locker. So for those that aren't aware, this is about one item from your relationship with physical activity throughout your life, and you induct that into our locker. We've had some amazing items in the past. So what item would you like to induct in, please?

Sue: 1:28

Amazing items in the past. I've had a long lifetime of relationship with sport and physical activity, but this is what I'd like to induct. It's a very quirky for those that are listening swimming hat with beautiful colored flowers, etc. An old fashioned swimming hat. And I think it probably reflects my relationship with sport and physical activity now. Through that lifetime in terms of I might have bought you something different 10, 15 years ago. But just finding the joy and the love and that for me is something I don't wear all the time when I'm open water swimming, but we wear it occasionally when we're swimming. So I do a lot of all round years swimming. And I think my, what I get from swimming has definitely changed what I get from sport and swimming has changed through that discovery.

Alex: 2:09

That's an amazing item and I love how colourful that is as well, it's really vibrant. I think I'm, I always say this, I really like to try to do as much digging as possible into my guests to try and find out anything about their personal relationship with physical activity. And one thing I did see was open water swimming, so I'm glad that's come up. I saw a post from your daughter on X about how you were crazy and doing it on your birthday, which is, yeah, not for me, I'm moving down to the South coast and maybe I need to get into that. How did your relationship with swimming start? Is it something that you did as a child and you've returned to?

Sue: 2:42

swam as a child, so I'm competitively, that was my sport as a child was swimming and then running. And then, there's all the team sports, netball, et cetera. But yeah, swimming was the core one that I can, it's probably the highest level of competing in. Yeah. And then, I guess I continued on as a bit of a swimmer, and I discovered triathlon in my 40s. So I just quite, I got quite competitive on the triathlon side, the age group side in my 40s and yeah early, late 40s. So that, so I think I was very competitive. I think I've been a quite a sporty family and a competitive family, I think that's the essence of my relationship with sport, but I think that's what's changed now in my late 50s, but it's more about doing things I love and just, and I, we're going to come and talk more about the importance of sport and physical activity, but walking, netball, yoga, open water swimming, but doing things without a Garmin on and not doing it for a time or not worrying about where I come, just doing it to enjoy it. So I think that's what's probably shifted in my, swimming relationship. I did a bit of master's swimming after I'd done the triathlon. I did some competitive master's in the nationals, which I enjoyed, but I think I feel differently about sport now.

Alex: 3:48

Is that in line with your perspective, in terms of professional way of thinking? Because I was trying to see a lot of the people that you interview. There is a vast mix of people, between people who are highly competitive and people who are more in it for societal gains. So where does your personal interest lie in terms of physical activity? Do you see that it's more transitioned into access for everyone versus that competition?

Sue: 4:13

think so. It is really interesting questions. I do think over the period of the time that I've worked, I ran a sports PR agency for 25, 26 years. And we always used to say at the time, we never worked really with, not with elite, but we never worked in football and Formula One, and we didn't really follow the money. We were much more grassroots, mass participation campaigns. And I think that was just because I love working in that space and probably saw more benefit than just making more money for rich people. So I think that, historically, there probably was that interest in. And I think that my involvement with Women's Sport and the Women's Sport Trust has been more about that high profile. Getting more funding into sport, more visibility, role models, et cetera. And I, but I feel like in the last five, 10 years, I've, I'm not disillusioned with that. I think that's still really important. But actually it's about ensuring we maintain the joy in sport for people at all levels. What I'm beginning to feel. I think probably the last five years, we get so focused on pathway and development and, Hey, you're in here. What team can you be? And how can you progress? That sometimes I think we begin to forget. The essence of sport and community and I talk a lot about joy, but just being with people, overcoming loneliness, having fun, and I think I've found that in sport in the last few years and want to make sure that other people can benefit from that too, that we don't, that we lose too many people on that drive for elite sport and medals. And forget that actually it's something that can be with you for life and has so many benefits. So I think it's a bit, yeah, a bit of my own personal journey that's reflected in the work that I do too.

Alex: 5:44

Oh no, I completely resonate. And before my work in the This Girl Can team now it is looking after a campaign new newish campaign called Play Their Way all around the positive experiences for children and young people and having the workforce understand the child's right to be able to play, develop, and learn in a way which is suitable for them, which isn't, it could be about winning medals, but it doesn't have to be about winning that. And how does a coach deliver. So this leads on quite perfectly because I'm interested in this next section around what one emotion would you give us in terms of your relationship with physical activity? If we were going to say, let's do some physical activity, what first emotion has come to mind?

Sue: 6:23

Yeah. It's interesting I feel I would say like exhilaration and excitement of physical activity, but I wonder now whether it might, and I use the word joy a lot, but whether that is, it's almost that joy and satisfaction and contentment of being, because for me now, so much of it is around friendship. And around people and spending time with other people too. So I feel that it's almost as, as important or I, I'm not doing as much of a going out for solo runs and I walk the dog a lot, but I'm not out running and training on my own long bike rides on my own long hours in the pool on my own. It is more of a shared experience, I would say. Yeah, I think, exhilaration and joy.

Alex: 7:06

that's a great word. I think as it sounds like the team sport is quite important to you from a mental health perspective. Is that something that. Is it more later on in life, or has that always been a part of what you've needed out of physical activity?

Sue: 7:21

I think I've all, I think I love the, I love netball and hockey. I love the team sport and it's interesting that my sports were then more individual sports of the swimming and running and so on. I had a really interesting conversation with Adrian Moorhouse. He's the chair of Leisure Focus. I'm the trustee for Leisure Focus as well in Berkshire. And we were chatting just before Christmas actually about why he chose swimming. I'm sure he won't mind me sharing. But at a school where it was all about rugby and sport and, getting selected or not getting selected, it was never down to you. And he discovered with swimming, actually, the faster he went, it was all down to him. He was in control, the better he trained, the more hours he put in the pool, he was going to get selected because he could do the times. So I, and it made me think, made me reflect on, Oh, that's interesting. Isn't it that my, in terms of the, where I had a strong pathway of success, it was more of swimming and running and then triathlon. But actually I do love the team side. And so I don't think it was a, I was never on a pathway to get selected for anything with a team. I've just loved being with other people and I enjoy that element. And now it's as much about not giving back, but we've got a lovely walking netball team that we go to once a week, but it's just so nice to see, to meet new people and seeing what you're giving back to them also in terms of women that maybe haven't played since school or haven't, played for a long time. But the, I get real satisfaction and happiness in what they're getting from the sport as well too.

Alex: 8:44

You seem to be able to I guess I'm perceiving it as you seem to be able to easily gain access to a wide range of different activities. Has that been the case? Have you been able to go, Oh, there's this opportunity here for me that I can engage in, or has there been times where you've not been sure how to kind of transition to something new and the struggles of that?

Sue: 9:02

Yes, I don't, it's in, I don't think I have really faced that as now, and I wonder that's just a confidence. And I think because I'm I was quite literate in the gym. So my brothers were all into bodybuilding and we had weights in the gym and we, so I think in terms of that strength training and being in a gym environment and I studied sports science at university too, so I think, although it's interesting isn't it, I do and like this comes up a lot in my work now at Leisure Focus, I think the gyms can still be massively intimidating for a huge proportion of the population, so we can have that conversation too, especially

Alex: 9:33

Oh, yeah.

Sue: 9:33

in line with This Girl Can and so on so even someone who is as confident as I am, With, working out in the gym, my husband's a personal trainer. I still get, can be really intimidated or feel intimidated going into that strange environment. But I think because I've always felt quite confident in my capabilities of I can hold my own almost, I probably haven't That I haven't been able to find sport or I haven't been able to shift. And even when I started doing the triathlon, that came from a, I was doing a year of challenges and I tried triathlon and then I joined the local triathlon club. So I don't think been scared to step forward, but maybe that's why now I want to make sure that other people can have access in that way, because it hasn't been an issue for me, but that, Beginning to get a little bit more aware in my late fifties that it is an issue for others too. I have always known that. So I think it's how we can make it as accessible and inviting and supportive. And that brings me great happiness as well, to know that I'm bringing people into something that I've enjoyed so much.

Alex: 10:29

It seems like I promise you we haven't been setting this up, but my day job right now and the projects I'm currently working on is the, in the This Girl Can team as the person looking after our project with UK Active looking at safer gyms, in terms of safer spaces to move, sexual harassment and intimidation. I'm working on It's such a infuriating but exciting topic because the insight shows that the majority of women still feel uncomfortable in that space. So not surprised that's also how you feel, even though you're saying you're confident and you're not afraid to try something new, there still is those feelings related to whether it be judgment, intimidation, sexual harassment, that still exists and it makes it hard for people.

Sue: 11:14

Yeah, I think it is it's interesting isn't it? I worked in the fitness industry for 15, 20 years at the beginning of the agency. So David Lloyd, Fitness First, gym group, like we worked for loads and loads, sport health clubs, lots of gym groups. And then there was a talk at the time about women only spaces And that's probably 30, 20, 30 years ago. I was a bit, not anti women only spaces, but oh no, let's make women feel comfortable in that gym environment. But I could so see the value and although we might not want it because we don't want a society where it's necessary. That doesn't mean to say it's not necessary and it won't have a huge impact. And women only swim sessions and I guess with the work I've done with the Women's Sport Collective is creating a community and entity that is female only. And when we set that up, we had many men saying, Oh, you're excluding men. And actually we need to integrate. And my point was actually, if we did that, we'd just end up like any other sports network. The whole point of it is women only. And I can see how that also relates to sport and physical activity. And some, the work of Mel Bound with This Women Runs, Of those initiatives. And again, from the outside, you might think, oh that's not necessary. They should be happy and let's make them welcome. If we could make all of our clubs welcoming, we wouldn't need those women only opportunities, venues, environments. But the fact is, isn't what society's that isn't what the world's the ecosystem and make it more inclusive generally. But until that is the case, I absolutely can see that need. And the difference, and I know even with some of the meetings, we do and physical activity within the Women's Sport Collective, but just even having a meeting, the different feel of women And we're not saying that every man that comes in is going to be offensive or disruptive or what have you. It just makes a difference when it is just women in the room and that's because of all that women have experienced more broadly in their lives and society. It isn't about the men that might be in online or in that room, but it definitely has a very different freeing feel, I think, for women.

Alex: 13:08

No. I battle with this in my head. One, being a man, working within This Girl Can team and the influence and how, when we have press releases or anything, should I be the one to say, or should I should it be Kate above me, how strong should my voice be when this is about women empowering women? A lot of the messages, but also when we're working on the projects like this, safer spaces to move in, in the gyms network. I think There is a real case for women only spaces and I truly believe that there should be women only spaces. That's not the answer I think there should be women only spaces There should be mixed places and the choice is the answer and the way if a woman chooses that she wants to be in an environment that where men are I think that's where there needs to be the structures policies in place for them to be able to exist in that environment. So completely with you, I'd balance between should we focus on women only spaces or should we just the whole thing around Women in Coaching Taskforce I was around before my previous team was like, fix the system, not the women it's around that message. So yeah, completely agree and battle between where our focus should be. But there's a lot of work that needs to be done first I think with the current leisure operators in terms of their processes, policies, and training around sexual harassment and intimidation for the mass. And then if the issue is still there, then maybe potentially lean heavier into women's only spaces. But yeah, there's so much work to do.

Sue: 14:30

you up on the coaching thing there. So as a women's sport collective, we've just launched a coaching hub, a new coaching hub with women in sport and Sport England and supporting that, that initiative. And then, and it's had a huge, an unbelievable response to women wanting to come in and be part of a network and a club where they can talk equally and openly with women from across sport who are in the same sport. situation is in, which is fabulous. But at the same time, as you said, there's all this work that's going on and looking at what else we need to do in terms of changing, much that could be changed within the ecosystem of, when the courses take place, who's on the courses, who's delivering the course, I could list them all but huge amounts of things that need to shift to make it a better environment for women. But that's not to say a network and a place to be connected isn't also valuable, as you say. Yeah, it's about choice. And I think it's about the things running alongside. It's not black and white. It's not you either have this, get this right or this right. And there's a lot of that, isn't there, about the whole world? It's don't, it's not women needing more confidence or women need more, but actually if women can feel connected and feel that they're valued and they can share and they've got role models to aspire to and I guess that's similar in the physical activity space, isn't it? To see more women like them taking part in physical activity also inspires you to know that you can do the same.

Alex: 15:43

And just on the word inspiring with that brings us on to our third question Just this is rolling so nicely. I shouldn't say I do that I shouldn't say things are rolling nicely and just let them roll nicely and it's yeah I need to get better at that part, but without being so cheesy So the third part of this introduction to yourself is around your inspirational dinner party. These are three guests that you're allowed to have who have inspired you throughout your life. It could be personal Professional or someone you've seen on tv Who have inspired you throughout your life that links to sport and physical activity. Do you have three people for me, please?

Sue: 16:20

Can I have your answer, please?

Alex: 16:22

Yeah.

Sue: 16:22

It's interesting, isn't it? So I would, I don't know if I'm getting a bit emotional on your podcast, but I would definitely say my mum, and it's interesting with this swimming hat, because that makes me think about my mum's not here anymore, that's why I get a bit emotional and sad, but but she was really, she was, it's funny, she was a really good swimmer. She was born in 1933, so you think about her lifetime and her experience of sport, women's sport, and she always, she was a beautiful swimmer, but when we were young, growing up, she always swam with her head out the water, not to not spoil her hair, but that was her elegance, her, she was an amazing tennis player but she played at the back line, these long, graceful shots. And my dad, she used to hate playing my dad, because he did all the little chips and lobs, and she would, I won't say, she used to call him a little pissy. Little pissy shots, she used to say. Because he would he was a squash player. And hers was much more elegant. So I look at her excellence in sport, but it came from that environment at that time of, and she was 5'10 So she was obviously tall, very athletic. It's what she might have done if she'd been around or born in this generation as an amazing basketball player or netballer or something that kind. So she, so definitely her, I'd love her. And I, and it's almost I'd love to have her. I'd love, Billie Jean King, and I'm sure many will have said that, but I think, and I, I have, our paths have crossed, but to have the chance to actually have dinner and sit and talk and what have you, that'd be lovely. And I guess the third one, it's quite funny because I was with her this week. Sally Mundy. Sally Mundy massively inspires me. I never come away from a conversation with her where I don't feel I've learned stuff and she really listens and so I feel having those three women together. I'd love my mum to meet Sally Mundy and I know my mum would love to meet Billie Jean King. So yeah, whilst it's not possible, I think it's almost Those would probably and it's hard for me because obviously we've got 10, 000 members in the Women's Sport Collective. There are thousands and thousands of women that inspire me every day in the work that I'm doing. But yeah, as you put me on the spot, I think that would, I would really enjoy that dinner party.

Alex: 18:15

I love those three and a little story about me and Sally Munday and of my first time, first week working at Sport England and for, I hadn't heard of Sally Munday before. And, but I've walked into the office. No one was in there. Sally was in there by herself. And she came over and said, hello, how are you? And I had a talk and then my team walked in and were like, why are you talking to Sally? I was like, she's a lovely person. And they were like, that's the CEO. I was like, I had no idea. But yeah, she was so kind and so nice and introduced herself because it was only us two in the office at the time. And then, yeah, she had no idea. She didn't seem like the kind of CEO who was inaccessible. So yeah, she seemed very, like a very kind person.

Sue: 18:58

Before she went to UK Sport, we first worked with her at Hockey, at England and GB Hockey. And then again, exactly that, just so accessible. It makes everybody feel valued and listened to and that's certainly a very powerful trait to have in someone that is so senior in sport. Yeah.

Alex: 19:16

And you said you've crossed paths with Billie Jean King. Okay.

Sue: 19:19

been in the same venues at time, but I've never really got to sit and have a lovely. Yeah, I keep trying to get on the podcast, Alex. We all know when Podcast, I've yeah, hit that one. One of those goals of my big guests. So yeah.

Alex: 19:30

So this is the kind of the domino effect. I've been trying to get you. That's a, so I've achieved that. So I feel like 2025 is going to be your year. So I've,

Sue: 19:39

like that.

Alex: 19:40

so you're trying to get Billy. So then I wonder who Billy's trying to get. Let's see if you can make that happen. So yeah. And then your mum is, it's great. I've, I would say that people like my mum is someone who's always inspired me as well. She's always cycled miles and miles with me to, to the lessons when we didn't have a car and wanted to make sure that I was getting to football sessions. So yeah, definitely. It sounds like an amazing three. So now what we do is we transition into the second half. I've tried, I tried to keep the first half just about the personal relationship, physical activity, but we have wandered off in terms of activity and we have covered some bits, which you may speak about now or not, but then what, before we go into tackling an activity, Now the listeners have found out a bit more about Sue, could you let us, the listeners know what your main role is at the moment, what you focus on and what you're currently working on?

Sue: 20:29

Yeah, so as I mentioned, I did, I ran a sports PR agency for 25, 26 years a lot in fitness, a lot in grassroots sports. And then during COVID co founded the Women's Sport Collective with Kate Hannon. And they're actually just, there were 70 women at the time that came together. online during that first lockdown just to talk and chat and lots of them were on furlough and Just to connect really and then on the back of that as we came out of covid We thought it would be great if it had such success. It would be lovely to expand it And I say last week we hit 10 000 members. So it's been free as we've kept it all free for people which has made a big difference not having that friction of fee to join and we have online meetings and in person, 12 regional hubs. So in person meetings and yeah, and it's grown and thrived. So running that day to day, and as it gets bigger, it is wonderful, but it does take quite a lot to, loads of WhatsApp communities and in persons and partners and so on. And then the Game Changers podcast. So again, we do 24 episodes a year. So producing and as from your side of things, setting them up and preparing and producing. Those, we do them in a series of eight. So three series a year on those. And then I do other stuff. So the stuff, so I wrote a book in 2021, it was published. So game on the unstoppable rise women's sport. So that was almost written during COVID when I got my thoughts together on the growth of women's sport and what we were experiencing. And then from that I made a documentary that was on Netflix is now on Sky Sports as of a couple weeks ago. So same name Game On. And another documentary called Bump in the Road, followed a Bristol rugby player through pregnancy and returning to play. And so I think the documentaries and the book really are things I just love to do, but they're not, I wouldn't say they're part of my day job almost they're bits on and when we have and we eventually covered some costs through a kind Investor funded the Abbey documentary and we've got some money from Netflix But we haven't made money on any of the documentaries or any of the content or the book but that isn't why I've done them really I've done them because I wanted to help drive change and and it's really lovely making stuff. So I really enjoyed making those things too but it's yeah, the it's the podcast and the documentary. I should say I had a It's really interesting. You haven't really asked me this, but i'm going to share it anyway

Alex: 22:37

Please do.

Sue: 22:37

But it's on the, so we made, I made Game On and obviously it went on Netflix for a year. That was fantastic. And it's really quite sexy to say you've got a film on Netflix. It was lovely and lovely for Ben and Jack. So there's a Ben and Jack, two amazing guys, young guys that I worked with to create it. So Jack's the co director and co producer with me and Ben's director of photography. And they've worked other documentaries too. But we were really excited to have it on Netflix and it did well on Netflix, but now it's gone on Sky. It's so different, the impact that it's having. And partly that is because Sky doing more, I think, to push it and promote it, and it's on very regularly. Also because people are watching Sky Sports, they're already in a place where they're thinking about sports, so it's not, it's almost like you wouldn't really find an audience necessarily, we now see on Netflix that would come and find a women's sports documentary. But also I've had these most amazing messages from men saying, oh my god, I've seen your documentary and it's changed the way I feel about my girls football team, a coach, or can you come and help? And anyway, so that's been really impactful for me, because that is why we made it in the first place, was actually, I didn't think a man would necessarily sit and read the whole of my book, but if he sat down watching something, and then he watches this hour that opens his mind to the history of why women's sport is where it is, and what needs to change, and some of the inequalities that still exist in a, in an entertaining one hour. Yeah, so it's been really gratifying to see that impact. Those are the things, I guess I do. I love Women's Sport Collective and the connecting and the building those connections and other women being inspired by others in leadership roles. So trying to get more balance in sport is my overall ambition. If I was to answer your question you put at the start, the overall ambition is more women in leadership and a better gender balance across sport. And I guess all of it is feeding into that, but the making of content is something that yeah, it makes me really happy.

Alex: 24:19

I can completely see why, maybe not for myself because this is, tackling activities is my thing, but then also barriers and motivations for women is something which I've always had a personal interest in but for My friends who, like they said, they wouldn't go to Netflix. They may for a documentary, it wouldn't be in their algorithm, but it wouldn't be in their algorithm. It would just be the office or something like that. But then if you're on, if you're on sky, there's so many of my friends who like, they would just. Sit at home on a Sunday when there's nothing to do and if it's on there they would just watch it and then you would Get those kind of messages when It's always funny listening to my friends when they do things like that because they'll put a message Quite a vulnerable message out in the whatsapp group say has anyone seen that documentary as if Am I gonna get ripped am I gonna get ripped for saying this or is it and then it was oh, no Yeah, that was really good You don't really get to see that the guys don't really post out external about those kind of things

Sue: 25:20

I've had

Alex: 25:20

so

Sue: 25:20

of these messages, I have, I've I've shared a couple of them with Jonathan Licht, the head of Sky Sports. I've sent a couple of them on because I think maybe they don't see those things too. It's just to say, Know, the impact that you're having because of what you're putting in people's front rooms almost that, that you're getting that message out to them. That is so important and can and for me, it's that impact of that. They watch that. Will that then change how they behave towards their wives and girlfriends and daughters and girls playing sport and the people they're coaching and as fans of sport, it can change them on so many levels. So yeah that's a bit that's exciting. And then their attitudes to women and girls generally, it's not just about sport. For me, it's that the whole of my driver is, it's a bigger picture. Sport's the vehicle through which I hope that change will come. But ultimately, it's about how men and boys treat women and girls within society. And I think sports got a big part to play there.

Alex: 26:10

So I feel this may be part of the next answer, but I'm not going to guide you down anyways. So the second half, the final question as well, because it's a chunky one is around, if you were going to tackle an activity, where do your thoughts start and what would you focus on? So I'll leave that as broad there, and then we can narrow down throughout the conversation. Where would you, how would you start the process?

Sue: 26:35

it is interesting because I think years ago, not even years ago, I do feel that whole role models, I think, and my space is very much women and girls, so I will set my stall out there. I think that whole, the lionesses, the inspiration, the high level, and I do still believe there's been a massive input and act, growth and activity as a result of a lionesses win and the Euros in 22, and I hope, I'm doing a lot of work around the rugby, so Women's Rugby World Cup. I hope that we'll see the same women's rugby in other sports too. Keely Hodgkinson, amazing women doing amazing things. Definitely does have an impact. However, I think what I've maybe grown up to or seen more of there is a, there is sometimes a thought that can put women off because actually that's not me. I'm never going to run at that pace of Paula Radcliffe. I'm never going to do anything at that level. Therefore, I won't even bother because I'm not like that. So it's that balance, I think, of role models to inspire. And, they all talk, don't they? Inspire the next generation. I think that is really important. But for me now, I think it is more about access and opportunity and inclusion and all those things at a grassroots in the playground. I think that's probably where not my view has changed. I think I have always thought that a bit but even more so now as I've looked at the clothing that, you know, that whether it's netball skirts and skorts for girls in PE, whether it's boys playing football and dominating in the playground, whether it's girls turning up at the rugby club and fun in the, on the crappy pitches at different times. So it's almost like all of those, I think there's one word, it would be access. I think that we say there's access, but is there really access? And how welcoming is that for girls in that, obviously it was that big dropout around teenagers too. There's not really one, but I guess in my head, I've moved further down the pyramid. And I think I probably always was the importance of grassroots. But I think even more so now, I think changes that enable far more to do far more. And also then, and I come back to where I started that whole, not necessarily about the pathway, but recognizing that a girl or a young boy might just want to play sport and love it forever. And actually I want them to love it forever. I don't want them to love it and get on a British cycling, to something amazing. And then absolutely hate the sport all the time. They're 17, 18. Cause they haven't, hit championships or what have you and never want to go on a bike again. I want a young woman to want to cycle forever. So I think that's where I've changed is the how do we, yes, we want a path where we want medals and all that comes with that. But actually what we want is people to love physical activity and sport and community and all overcome loneliness, all those things for the rest of their lives. Not just, those younger ages.

Alex: 29:14

Completely agree. And I think this is where the unfair part of the podcast comes in because we talk around access as a topic you've listed some amazing things here, but what I try to do with all of our guests is narrow us down to something which the person is not the one, not necessarily the one where, but if we can, fantastic, but more around the one thing that my guest is personally passionate about. So we've spoken around access and then underneath that you've said play and they love it, but then you've also spoken around. The opportunities and PE and the PE kit. So is there something which if you were going to focus on, you had that pot of money to say, I'm going to work on this part of access. Is there something that you would put time and energy towards?

Sue: 29:54

There are many, and I'm not answering you. There are many things, and I think that's often the way it's complicated and it's not one thing. I might say coaches, I might say women, getting more women there to coach girls, getting PE teachers up skilled to encourage girls, having more clubs, having more female coaches, and then I would say women in the pathway, inspiring and being seen there as leaders and coaches of high level sport, both men's and women's. Cause I think that I think for lots of women and girls, it does make a difference to have a woman that's coaching you and inspiring you and understanding you, especially for girls going through puberty as well, too. I think So if I was to change one thing right now, I think it would probably be around coaches, both volunteer and professional and trying to redress it. Because I think we've had such success at sport in so many areas of funding and teams and access. But actually it's still only whatever it is, 10 to 12 percent of Olympic and Paralympic coaches are female in the performance. And that, and not that's the only thing to it affects it, but it then filters right way down, I think, across the coaching pathway and ultimately it's coaches and so many people I've talked on the podcast is about who brought you into sport was PE teacher that built a love of sport. Enabling those PE teachers to do more coaches women as coaches feeling there's a place for them in the coaching structure.

Alex: 31:13

So just a bit the Play Their Way anecdote on that. When we, obviously the majority of coaches are male, but when we started Play Their Way in the message around child first coaching, which is based around children's rights and how you can create an environment for a child, which isn't go out in a field and just run about and have fun. It's still structured learning and development. But with the child in mind, the actual audience that we've seen on social media. Has been a higher percentage of women and they have been engaging because they understand and those skills that are needed and are willing and able to implement them where a lot of, I believe, the older men have more traditional, older, skills and techniques. So it's really interesting to say we want to be doing child first coaching and those who are resonating most and say that able and willing are women in the workforce. So you're completely right. Maybe we do need we definitely do need more women in the workforce for a number of reasons, but also for this new philosophy that we're saying is beneficial.

Sue: 32:14

And actually it's beneficial for all also, because I do feel there's very much that autocrat, like we, once we get more senior, we need men in because there are more, it's that typical leadership of slightly more aggressive and leading for the front. And, but actually the women that have built up, they often, I'm thinking of someone like Giselle Mather, who did amazing work at London Irish Academy with Jonathan Josephs and loads of amazing young rugby players. it's almost oh yeah, we'll leave the women looking after the younger athletes and whatever, the nurturing. And then by the time they get here, we'll bring the men in the high paid jobs in the PWR clubs, bring in the men. But actually by the time they got to that stage, the job's less important. The work's been done at that lower level of bringing on skillset and the attitude to sport, et cetera. And it's in many cases, it's the women that have done that. So I think it's yeah, all absolutely at all levels that we need to see more women coaches progressing.

Alex: 33:08

And my previous manager, Stuart Armstrong, he was a big advocate for saying the way that the That coaches are recognized is flawed because it is like the level at the top means you have to be performance pathway, but he's no, actually being on a field on a Saturday managing 12 children were who's different development levels and different strengths and skills is challenging because they may not even want to be at the higher level. They want to be there the majority of the time. So yeah, he was always an advocate for that. So we've got you. We're focusing you down. We're saying women in the workforce women coaching and the difference they make. What's your thoughts on how to get more women in the workforce, how to get more women coaches and how would you approach doing that?

Sue: 33:53

I think it's interesting because there is this work going on at the moment anyway. I feel like I'm like an advert for Sport England. The work that you're funding with women in sport at the moment, but there is a work around the task force. And so it is in those different levels. It is around. I think the role model, I think role models is very important. And we, name of female coach, people might go Hope Powell or Emma Hayes. There's not very many of them. So I think it is about more role modeling and celebrating those amazing women. And we've got six fabulous patrons for our coaching task force. And anyway, going to jump a little bit and come back. We approached, we wanted two or three patrons for the coaching task force. We approached six women. They were the first six women that we approached. They all came back and said yes on the same day. They all said, we would love to be patrons. We want and that's so different, isn't it? So that whole women wanting to support the women is so powerful. So I think that role models and inspiration is important. There's lots of stuff that's going to be so hard to move, which is the whole, we appoint people like ourselves, who's in the decision making positions in those panels, choosing who is the next performance director is, who's choosing who the next head coaches, et cetera. So that people, appointing people that they know, I think there's loads of challenges. It's women in football. There's specific challenges because there aren't many ways a woman, if your coaching women's football can be a professional coach at the moment. They're only, you might be full paid in the WSL, but in the championship, they're not all fully paid. And that's only whatever, 20 teams. Whereas as a man, you could be a professional football coach across loads and loads of levels of the pyramid. So it's harder for women to step forward and say I've been a professional football coach. So I think there's a structural pieces that needs to change. There's a, how we recruit people. There's a coming back to the thing about, do we need more female only? I hear horror stories of women turning up at, level four, level five, whatever, coaching. And they're the only woman with 30 men and how that makes you feel. And some women will, are happy to come along and do that for others, all that creates. So I'm not giving you one answer because I think there are lots of elements. And then it's the balance of what does the coach mean? What do we have, is that an appealing role for anybody to be away from your home for 300 nights a week if you're on an elite pathway? Actually, is there more that we could be doing in terms of supporting our coaches, male and female sharing roles, et cetera, et cetera. So giving you one answer because there are lots of different things to look at. List of four or five things there, but yeah.

Alex: 36:14

I always do this. And this is where

Sue: 36:16

things

Alex: 36:16

it goes back to

Sue: 36:17

are

Alex: 36:18

fully understand that everyone fairly talks to conceptually at the top. And I do really unfairly whittle people down because it makes it sound like Sue's only interested in role models. And then that's not what I'm trying to do. So it's more just. The listeners understanding what you personally are passionate about. So yeah, there's, so we've got role modeling here. We spoke about that quite a bit. And so what it means to be a coach, this structural issues, is there anything within the structural issues that you, that either women in sport or you feel Sport England or the sector should be working that doesn't currently exist?

Sue: 36:53

I think there are many things and some sports are doing it well. If you look at world rugby and what they did with the last Rugby World Cup and what they're doing now, it's almost like it's stipulating like a code. Actually, if you've got this team, you need to have, you have a male and female in your, in each of your teams at each of your levels or so. I'm not really for quotas in terms of I'd like them not to have to exist, but my goodness, they work as we know, with the code for sports governance from Sport England. So actually saying, if you're going to get this funding, you need a male and female coach, or you at least need an active female in your coaching setup. So then, and I remember talking to to World Rugby about this before the last World Cup. And at the end of that, you've got 12 amazing women who can say they've been to a World Cup and they've worked in a coaching team and they've got more opportunities. So I definitely think there is more of a stating that, if we're going to have this, you need to have this too, and they, need to be equal. They're putting some of that policy in place, I think, and that's, is it, people are able to do that. That is in their gift to do that if they're running an organization, but often they wouldn't do that. Yeah.

Alex: 37:54

I think it's quite an interesting one. Like you said, the quota and the, Code for the sport, the Code for the Sports Governance. I think that's when you see the diversity inclusion action plans, some are really embracing it. Some organizations, they seem to be saying that this is what we've needed, this to push us through to the next level. And it feels to me that some, it's an exercise to get the funding, but I feel like even with that, it's a great first step. How do you go to being just naturally part of an organization's culture. That's the part which I feel is some organizations are going to struggle with

Sue: 38:27

And I guess

Alex: 38:27

because it's always going to feel like it's

Sue: 38:29

comes

Alex: 38:29

funding related.

Sue: 38:30

these things, it comes with success, doesn't it? So if you did give those women equal access, equal hours, equal access to the players, equal funding, whatever, then they'll have success. Then there's no way they won't be as successful. There's no reason that they shouldn't be as successful. They may be more successful than your male coaches. So I think once you then have that success, then it's easy because actually, why would you not? You've doubled your pool of people that could become coaches, performance directors, you've made it more accessible. So I think but you need to redress the balance first of all, to make it fair. And it's not fair. And actually in terms of equity, you need to invest more and more courses and more access to, to begin to redress that balance. It's not just about equality. It's about making sure we get to a point where there is equal access and opportunity. Yeah, I'd like to believe that eventually, and I think that's the same, we can come on to talk about funding of women's sport, etc. I think it needs to be addressed. But when you then get there, then the brands will benefit as much. And they will see the benefit of supporting and sponsoring women's sport in the same way. But someone needs to put something in place to create that shift. It's not going to happen naturally. And if it does, it's going to take another hundred years. So we need to put something in place to move it along faster.

Alex: 39:40

I think you said we'll come on to funding and women's support. So I'm going to jump straight in there and see what specifically you mean by that. And then what are you passionate about in terms of more funding towards women? Is it this workforce piece or is it more in general access for activity and everything?

Sue: 39:55

so I jumped off a bit there. I think for me,

Alex: 39:57

That's fine.

Sue: 39:58

My passion is about workforce, it's about more women in those rooms where the decisions are being made. So that's why I think we've all got an opportunity to shift and create a bit change, haven't we? But I think you can't do it all. And I'm really passionate about women and girls and clothing, sports science, coaching, like there's so many different areas. But I think if I had to pick my sweet spot of where I feel the work that I do now with the Game Changers and the Women's Sport Collective and standing up and speaking out for women, is around enabling women to be in positions where decisions are being made. And that may be in terms of board roles and governance, but also in those senior teams at the top table. So when someone says, shall we put this on at this time or this time, or shall we spend this on this or this? There's more of a balance decision making. It's not just people and not people, not men making the wrong decisions in a cruel way, but just because they haven't even thought I've never been through that I've never experienced that they and that's around facilities and, right down. And I know there are some amazing women doing a lot of work in this space, but in making playing environments inclusive for women, if a man's not had daughters even or is not, is clearly never been through female puberty, understanding what that means to girls. So having women in those senior decision making positions who have lived as a women can make a real difference to what then happens throughout a sport. So that's my, I guess my ambition is to make sure we've got more women recognized and so in those senior positions, but also in terms of funding that then, Anyway, without going off on one, but I look at what's happening at the moment with the 100. We've had all these amazing bids on the 100 teams. This is what we've just come out of that. These huge amounts of money and, whether it is around ego and it's these investors coming in. We're not talking about women. The 100 is equally men's and women's teams. I've heard so little about the female teams and the focus on females, etc. Around the conversation around the hundred and the fit, there's female investors that I know that have tried to get involved there, but not really being as involved as they'd like to have been, not been as embraced in the process as they'd like to be. So the danger is it just ends up being more because the money's come from the men and those, men see that as a powerful piece to be involved with. It just continues on where we have been in the past, which is slightly frustrating from a, because actually it is about money and funding that's needed to enable those things to happen. So yeah, I don't know. I wouldn't name them, but some big male investors at the moment that have invested across sport. In football clubs and cycling and sailing you can know who I'm talking about. I do think goodness me, can you imagine if he'd have taken all that money and said what I want is better equity and equality in society I'm going to put all my money in female sport. I'm going to only invest in teams if they equally invest in the female side. I've got invested in this cycling team. They need to have a female equivalent and this But they but people haven't so that's why I guess i'm hopeful of is will more money come in with somebody that's really passionate about helping to address that balance because for all that we do on a grassroots level without funding ultimately that does make it more challenging. And I do think, and I, because I guess someone might listen to this and think, why should a, why should guys and or organizations be funding women's sport? I don't want it to be like it's a worthy thing, you need to be doing this. So I, the other thing is women's sport needs to prove and All the amazing stuff that the Women's Sport Trust does in terms of sharing its research and data around the growing audience and the impact and what it does for sponsors to be sponsoring women's sport versus sponsoring the men's sport. So we need to better tell that story of and all the amazing social impact that these athletes are having in terms of the visibility on social media and the reach and engagement that they get versus men's sport. So I think part of our job as a women's sport, if that's a is to better tell that story. So it isn't just, you can pay this much money to sponsor this and you'll get this or sponsor, because actually at the moment, in many cases, it does still in the favor of men's sport in terms of eyeballs and those traditional metrics of how we measure the success of sport. So that's the balance and the challenge. And yet I also feel we, we do need to address. 100 years of inequality Get to that place where it is substantial and worth investing in.

Alex: 44:08

From a Women's sport collective, so 10, 000 members, which is crazy, how do you collate, or what are you doing to collate all the amazing insight and success stories and impact? How do, how are you doing that with 10, 000 women?

Sue: 44:25

Such a good question Alex and that's what Kate I often ask ourselves. So it is a challenge because of 10, 000 women out there or of the membership. So about a third are non exec directors, CEOs, very senior top level. There's about a third that middle management and a third that are either first role in or PhD or etc coming into the sector. And it's stay, it's pretty much stayed that way for five years that right from the start, it was, that's as we recruited women initially, and that's where they stayed. So we do talk, obviously, and through Sport England, we show our impact and the impact that we're having, not just in numbers and metrics of this many people came to our meetings or this many people have made connections. I'm at Quinn's tonight at the rugby and I know women will approach me and say, I'm a member of the collective and through this I've met this and I've got this job and I've So I've been introduced to her and so we are hearing that in person all the time and online and so on. So we do try to tally that up and a question about for you isn't it? How should we be managing and reflecting this? And some of it is just the case studies. I could take five women, I won't give you exact examples of, but women have approached me recently and said, Oh, my, the difference is made to their lives, their careers, the how they feel connected to the industry, the knowledge they've learned. And then, and for me, it's that ripple as well, isn't it? So you're having a positive impact for a woman who then goes on to have a positive impact for others in her team that she might be coaching or that she's influencing. So yeah, I don't really have an answer for how we do measure the impact. And I, and we're looking at other kind of social purpose tools. Are there tools that we can, in terms of getting a real ROI on the collective? And then a bit of me feels, I probably shouldn't admit this to you, Alex, is I know it, I know how impactful it is actually. And I, and do we need to measure it and keep telling people? Or actually, if people keep going and telling other people and we work so hard to make sure that the membership's up to date, people, that really is people that are members of the collective and we're constantly de duping and updating emails. If all those people, even if half of those people are finding value from it and telling others, and our research shows us that a huge percentage feel more confident about working in the industry. They found out about other jobs in the industry. They've got jobs through the collective too. So I've got those kind of numbers and stats. from the research each year that show me that's the case, but it is that anecdotal, quite emotional when people write to us or tell us the difference that it's made to. But yeah, it's interesting. It's an interesting thing because it is a bit more ephemeral. It's quite hard to tangibly say their salaries have gone up this much or, and because the sector doesn't measure But there is some research now, isn't there, but in terms of there's less women on boards than there was a few years ago but where, and the sport is so broad, we've got women that are from coaches and scientists and broadcasters through to CEOs and activists and working in brand agencies and working in brands. And that's quite hard to see where the shift in gender equality is happening because The sector is so broad. It's not like it's just NGBs or it's just those working within sports leagues and teams. So it's hard to say through our work, we've now got 20 percent more women or there's more opportunities on boards. No, you, I got, you got me there. I was a long answer because it is something that's, it's really important. But we, for as long as we feel, we know it's having impact, it is it's sometimes it can be a challenge to, to illustrate that.

Alex: 47:36

I think that's a beautiful place to stop because I think that the part which I'm still doing is the name of the podcast around Working it Out. I don't think there's ever going to be one answer to an ever evolving thing. I always ask the unfair questions of, like, How are we demonstrating impact? What's your one thing going to be? But it's not, it's never going to be that. It's not that simple. So you've achieved, which you've explained very well, but also demonstrated that this is just ever evolving. And it's not potentially, I like the answer of, we don't need to always evidence impact because you should know it, you should see it. It's there. Yeah, so I could go on for another hour talking to you, but I can't keep you that long. So thank you very much for joining me today, Sue.

Sue: 48:19

It's been a real pleasure. I feel like I've talked about things I've only had in my head and not talked about before. So thank you for giving me that opportunity as well, Alex.